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What do you guys think? (Read 651 times)
Robert Harper
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What do you guys think?
07/14/12 at 06:25:06
 
I'm on vacation, visiting my son, and while we're following the girls and wandering from shop to shop, I see one that has some turnings in it and have to pop in for a look. There were several similar pieces on the display that looked not too bad from a distance, once I took a closer look, I noticed that the turner only turned the outside and maybe a bit of the top. They'd used a Forster bit to hollow maybe half way down. Then I looked at the price and kind of flipped. They wanted around $100 for them.

The frustrating thing for me is that I have a hard time getting $30 for something I think has better form and is actually hollowed out.

I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I shouldn't care much but I do. It just seems so lazy to do a decent job with the outside of a vase and then to only partially drill out the center is like selling a watercolor painting where you bought the paper with the lines on it and only filled them in with a little paint then selling it as "original" art.

I did see some lovely work by a true turner in another shop. Sorry I forget his name but he had a lot of nice, large, hollow forms made out of aspen and a lot of turquoise inlay around ant holes and other defects. But then this gallery was much more up scale and only had true art in it. Most of these were listed in excess of $300 and I'd call them well worth it.

Sorry for the vent. My son calls me a freak. He's probably right that I should just take a chill pill and take some of my stuff to a gallery and see what I can get for mine.
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Robert Tewart
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #1 - 07/14/12 at 09:06:04
 
My wife, The Lovely Karen,  is an antique dealer (mostly glassware and art glass) and is always complaining that people will look at her stuff and tell her how nice it is then go and buy cheep chinese stuff or knock-offs.  It's too bad but there will always be people buying low quality at high prices because it's easy to get or they don't know any better.  You should hear the rants Karen goes into sometime.  bang head
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JimQuarles
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #2 - 07/14/12 at 09:06:14
 
Sounds like some of the stuff I was looking at in Durango last month.  Even my wife sneered at the drilled pieces.
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« Last Edit: 07/14/12 at 14:30:42 by JimQuarles »  

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Larry Matchett
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #3 - 07/14/12 at 13:42:10
 
Ya know Robert if your stuff is much better then you should be encouraged to try and place some of your stuff in a gallery, not a craft shop.  Sometimes the horse we ride is pretty high and we need help getting down. Wink
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Robert Harper
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #4 - 07/14/12 at 15:50:25
 
JimQuarles wrote on 07/14/12 at 09:06:14:
Sounds like some of the stuff I was looking at in Durango last month.  Even my wife sneered at the drilled pieces.

I was visiting my son in Durango. I saw these when we visited Ouray. There is a shop a couple doors down from the shop my son is working in that has some fantastic turnings. I almost talked to the owner to see if I could interest her in some of mine but didn't think mine matched what she already was showing.
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Robert Harper
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #5 - 07/14/12 at 15:54:00
 
Larry Matchett wrote on 07/14/12 at 13:42:10:
Ya know Robert if your stuff is much better then you should be encouraged to try and place some of your stuff in a gallery, not a craft shop.  Sometimes the horse we ride is pretty high and we need help getting down. Wink

I do feel guilty for getting on a high horse but it just drives me nuts when you see things that had so much potential and then someone does a half job of it, then sells it of as finished.

I'm not sure what this rant makes me but it is just so hard to not vent once in a while.

My son, bless his heart, if he sees stuff like this, he tries to steer me clear of it. He has a good eye and can tell from quite a ways away what is good and what is not. He fancies himself a potter so he does the same thing with pottery.
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #6 - 07/14/12 at 17:54:43
 
Robert Harper wrote on 07/14/12 at 15:54:00:
Larry Matchett wrote on 07/14/12 at 13:42:10:
Ya know Robert if your stuff is much better then you should be encouraged to try and place some of your stuff in a gallery, not a craft shop.  Sometimes the horse we ride is pretty high and we need help getting down. Wink

I do feel guilty for getting on a high horse but it just drives me nuts when you see things that had so much potential and then someone does a half job of it, then sells it of as finished.

I'm not sure what this rant makes me but it is just so hard to not vent once in a while.

My son, bless his heart, if he sees stuff like this, he tries to steer me clear of it. He has a good eye and can tell from quite a ways away what is good and what is not. He fancies himself a potter so he does the same thing with pottery.


Robert, I felt the same way when I was doing bandsaw boxes.  I would put so much effort into them---exacting book matching, exotic woods, perfect grain alignment, working to make the seems invisible, all the gluing and hours and hours of sanding, perfecting the form, the finish---then I see some POC half finished, cheap wood, sloppy jointed lacquer dipped, full of runs thing in a fancy boutique for $250!  AARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!  The guy sold the things too!!!---it was in a fancy shop, cost a fancy price, so it must be worth it, right?  LOL
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Chuck Beland
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #7 - 07/15/12 at 02:47:03
 
I think the reason you were irritated is the same for any of us here. You don't like to see shoddy work & have the rest of us given bad names. It's the difference between craftsmanship & JUST CHEAP PRODUCTION WORK.
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Larry Matchett
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #8 - 07/15/12 at 08:36:39
 
Just a short analagy, selling a cheaply made car does not give the auto industry a bad name.  Just the maker of the cheap poorly made car.  Folks will still pay a lot of money for a well made machine.  Same with turning.   There is always a market for well made stuff, and there is a market for very high end stuff.  You just have to realize that you are selling to the 1 or 2 percent of the population.  There is a market for cheap poorly made stuff,  hence a lot of Chinese and not so many years ago Japanese stuff.  Most of us have at least some Harbor Freight stuff in our shops.  The more junk turnings in shops the better chance you have of getting your stuff in and sell for good prices.  If I were a production turner I would look for shops that have poor quality stuff and offer my stuff for a competative price.  Most buyers do notice quality when they have something to compare it to.  Before I would start calling my stuff ART I would have to compare my stuff to objects of art on the WOW website.  That is where I see most of the 1 to 2 percent stuff.  So much for short. shake head
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Eric Geist
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #9 - 07/15/12 at 09:06:54
 
Robert, the situation you described is rather common here in Colorado. Nearly every town on the west side of I-25 has a "touristy district" and some towns only exist as a result of that district. Ouray, Estes Park, Lyons, etc. In most of those districts, you will find at least one "art gallery" I put that in quotes because that term can be defined very loosely, ranging from the highest end, to a shop in which crafts made by children will be displayed for sale. Even most Ace Hardware stores have a section where handcrafted goods are sold. the competition for the tourist dollar is pretty fierce.
On the other side of the equation is the fact that Colorado is a haven for artists of all sorts. Little unassuming Loveland is home to the biggest sculpture invitational in the world, and has more per-capita sculptors than anywhere in Europe. Turners like David Nittman, Cindy Drozda, Stuart Batty, and a host of others all live in this area as well. Basically, if you were to throw a rock in any crowd in Colorado, chances are, you would hit an artist of some sort.
Those factors lead to a dynamic where you can walk into any gallery and find a wide range of quality in the work, and a wide range of what customers are looking for. Sometimes the owner is helping out a friend or family member, sometimes the owner is a bit shady, so they have had established artists pull their work, and are left to resort to carrying work of lesser quality.
One gallery I went to in the Denver area carried some bowls and hollow forms that were absolutely fantastic. The turner was a friend of the gallery owner, so he also carried the guy's smaller items (pens, stoppers, etc) Unless told, I would not have been able to tell that the pens were turned by the same guy who did the bowls. There was that much of a disparity in the quality, but because of the relationship between the turner and the owner, he is the one who got the space. 

I was at a gas station in a mountain town, and some turnings by 2 different artists were on display. One was more like you described (hollowed with a forstner bit, and very rough looking-could have even been the same guy for all I know), and the other was in my opinion much higher quality of workmanship. The prices were comparable. I overheard a lady say " I like this one better because it is more rustic looking"

Most of us here believe that quality craftsmanship is important, and should fetch a higher price, but I have come to grips with the notion that it will not always be the case. I have a set of standards that I have set for myself, and will continue to improve on those standards. If someone chooses an item of lesser quality over mine, I can still look myself in the mirror, and know that I did the best job I could do.
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Robert Harper
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #10 - 07/15/12 at 17:04:18
 
Eric, I hear you. I'm coming to the same point. I try to do the best I can with the wood I have on the lathe. 90% of my wood is down trees that most turners don't like but what the heck, its free. Some looks fantastic, some I think even gallery worthy, most is OK and I keep the ones I love and gift the rest out.

My son just tells me to shut up and take some of mine to a gallery. I think I'll put some in the state fair to see what the public reaction is and then maybe see if there is a local gallery. We don't have as many as you do in Colorado but there are a few here and there.

The best stuff I saw was a gallery in Durango and one in Ouray. I wish I could remember the turner's names. There was an aspen burl vase in Durango that was fantastic. I think it was probably worth the $2,500 asking. Very large and good form. The one in Ouray, used a lot of turquoise to fill ant holes. Most of his stuff was spalted aspen. Not many turners like to turn aspen but I have some vases that were fun to make and look fantastic. Just not very big.
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Scott glass
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #11 - 07/15/12 at 19:24:41
 
Part of the problem is people do not know what "hand made" is anymore. And some people have no pride nor principles and will try to sell anything to make a buck, and some people are convinced the more it costs the better is must be. Probably the biggest selling point I tell people about my pens are that they are hand made one of a kind, in fact I don't think I could make 2 exactly alike if I tried(I don't tell them that) But sanding marks, tool marks(obvious) in work you are trying to sell is just plain cheesy to me.
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Eric Geist
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #12 - 07/15/12 at 20:03:34
 
Scott, I think you are right. I think that there is a segment of the population that finds a certain charm in an item that has a rustic, raw, or "unfinished" look to it. To them, handmade has to look handmade, and imperfections in technique or finish are easy indicators to them that it was handmade. In my opinion, they are confusing handmade with amateur made. While I can by no means call myself a professional, I have no desire to become renowned as a well-sold amateur, so I don't cater  to that segment of the population.
In typing this, however, I got to thinking that there are differing levels of this phenomenon. In this forum, there are people who just don't like a dyed piece, a lacquered piece, or a pen with a CA finish, and have there own reasons for feeling that way. Many will say something like "wood should look and feel like wood" They find the charm in the texture, the warmth, and the feel of the wood, while others want a piece that looks and feels as smooth as glass. I'm not trying to start a debate on how far to finish a piece, just pointing out that everyone has a very different criteria for how a piece should look and feel. Those criteria tend to be more focused in the woodturning community, but once the piece gets outside the woodturning community, the criteria expands greatly.  While I agree that technical prowess (tool marks, sanding marks,etc) should be the first tier of any criteria, I think you will find that outside the turning community (and especially in the tourist trade) it holds much less importance than most of us would apply.

Perhaps some of us (myself included sometimes) need to be a little less self-critical, and put more work out there for the public to judge. If they start seeing more quality next to poor quality, they will begin to see the difference. That doesn't mean that we should stop improving. In fact, quite the opposite. If we continue to raise the bar for ourselves while in the public eye, it may raise the bar for our peers as well.
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Eric Geist
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #13 - 07/15/12 at 20:15:45
 
Robert, I think one of the reasons for the price of that vase was the rarity of the wood. I don't believe that I have ever seen an aspen burl. I bet it was gorgeous! I'm a huge fan of aspen, but since I am right now in the pen groove, I don't use a lot because the colorations that you get from standing dead don't translate well to pens. I have 4 huge aspens in my yard, and when they die, I hope to get a headboard, footboard, and a few vases and bowls out of them. Hopefully I can leave them standing long enough to get good colors from them.
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Robert Harper
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Re: What do you guys think?
Reply #14 - 07/15/12 at 20:16:10
 
Scott reminded me of all that crap my wife used to buy. She'd come home with some stupid duck decoy that didn't even look like a duck. Maybe half an hour on the band saw, five minutes if at all with sand paper, some glue, a few nails, crappy paint job, throw it around the shop a few times for that "rustic" look, and onto the shelf for $60. Even before I started working with wood, I would have been ashamed. But she bought tons of those things. Only to toss them in a year or two.

Doh!
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