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Ed Weber

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Visualizing
Apr 20^th, 2013 at 11:41am

In a recent thread regarding segment size, I mentioned allowing extra material for unknowns and errors.
Here is an error I made in not allowing enough room to produce a desired curve.
Photo 1 is a bowl I made a year ago, the area to look at is the 3 rings above the foot.
Photo 2 is a basic cross section of a similar bowl, again we are looking at rings 5,6 and 7.
Specifically look at the area where 6 meets 7, there is no room for error. either ring of segments would need to be thicker to allow any changes.
So if the number 7 ring was made using 2" thick stock, it probably should have been 2 1/2" to accommodate the desired curve. If we did that, the outside segment length would be longer as well. This would allow the necessary material to change the curve to the desired shape.
I hope this makes sense, I know sometimes people have a hard time visualizing some things, I hope this helps.

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« Last Edit: Apr 21^st, 2013 at 1:43pm by Ron Sardo »

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Ron Sardo WR Administrator WR Patron Offline Chief cook and bottle washer Posts: 9,674 Drums Pennsylvania USA PM 3520	Re: Visualizing Reply #1 - Apr 20^th, 2013 at 12:33pm Great Visual Ed.
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Mike Fisher

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Re: Visualizing
Reply #2 - Apr 20^th, 2013 at 4:26pm

Being somewhat of a beginer segmented turner I always added about a 1/4 inch to the outside and inside dia.
i.e. if I wanted a 8" dia ring, I built a 8-1/4 dia ring. I also made the board width 1/4 larger than needed.

While this meant I had more to cut away, it componsated for ring centering errors, etc.

The OP's example also happened to me on one of the first bowls I made. That is when I started to added some waste material.

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Ed Weber

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Re: Visualizing
Reply #3 - Apr 20^th, 2013 at 5:29pm

Mike Fisher wrote on Apr 20^th, 2013 at 4:26pm:

Being somewhat of a beginer segmented turner I always added about a 1/4 inch to the outside and inside dia.
i.e.if I wanted a 8" dia ring, I built a 8-1/4 dia ring. I also made the board width 1/4 larger than needed.

Beginner or not, this can be a good/safe idea, especially on transition rings or rings with a low angle.

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Mike Fisher

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Re: size
Reply #4 - Apr 20^th, 2013 at 7:02pm

As others have said you can draw out your design on graph paper. This helps in deciding segment thickness and width.

I now use a software package by woodturnerpro.com
The more I use it the more I like it. Also M. Tibbots has a great book out on segmented bowl making. He makes the math easy.

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« Last Edit: Apr 21^st, 2013 at 1:47pm by Ron Sardo »
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Grant Wilkinson WR Addict Offline Posts: 783 Ottawa Ontario Canada	Re: Visualizing Reply #5 - Apr 22^nd, 2013 at 7:54pm I do my plans very similar to yours, Mike. I've now reduced the "fudge factor" from when I first started, but within reason, more is better.
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Mike Fisher

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Re: Visualizing
Reply #6 - Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 12:36am

Grant Wilkinson wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2013 at 7:54pm:

I do my plans very similar to yours, Mike. I've now reduced the "fudge factor" from when I first started, but within reason, more is better.

I started using woodturner pro a couple of months ago. I purchased the suite (3d design, woodturner pro, and lamination pro). If you like working with computers, this is a great set of software. While I still add a fudge factor, it beats the heck out of my hand drawings.

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Grant Wilkinson WR Addict Offline Posts: 783 Ottawa Ontario Canada	Re: Visualizing Reply #7 - Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 5:59pm Tks, Mike. I've looked at a few different apps, but so far, my hand drawings do the trick for me. My stuff is pretty simple.
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Ken Vaughan

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Re: Visualizing
Reply #8 - Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 6:42pm

Ed, I have come back to your explanation a couple of times

"Thickness" as used by Tibbets and others usually means the dimension in the verticle. The exception is with staves.

I think your illustration well illustrates the need for greater "width" or "length" of the segments. That example especially points to use of a bit wider board when cutting segments -

Nice illustration that makes the point about allowance for variation between planning and turning.

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Ed Weber

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Re: Visualizing
Reply #9 - Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 8:53pm

Ken Vaughan wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 6:42pm:

I think your illustration well illustrates the needfor greater "width" or "length" of the segments.That example especially points to use of a bit wider board when cutting segments -

Everybody uses terms differently so sorry if I confused you.
In my world, a standard segment has the following.
Length, horizontal measurement of the outside face.
Width, the thickness from inside to outside of a segment. measured in the center.
Height, Vertical measurement of the outside face

Sometimes thick or thickness is used the same as width
In my example, if I made each segment longer as you say, I would simply end up with a larger diameter ring. This might help my problem on the outside but create another on the inside.
The use of a wider (width) board when cutting segments is exactly how I use the term.
In my example I really need to do both. So using a wider board to start with means, to achieve more material on the outside face of the ring, I also need to adjust the outside length of each segment. The inside face of each segment can remain the same.

Usually, length is the measurement that runs with the grain.
Width is the measurement that runs across the grain
Length x width x height is how all woodworking should be referenced and how measurements should be read.
JMHO

Hope that helps clears things up, if not, I'll take some pictures.

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Ken Vaughan WR Addict Offline Still learning Posts: 3,685 Juneau Alaska USA Gender: Stubby 750 Jet 1014 vs Bonnie Klein Lathe	Re: Visualizing Reply #10 - Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 9:56pm Perfect! Again -- very nice illustration.
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Ed Weber

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Re: Visualizing
Reply #11 - Apr 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am

Ken, I'll add one more thing to this long winded explanation.
I don't think using the term "thick" to refer to height is really wrong, but not accurate. Most turners use the term "thick when referring to wall thickness. This is why I think it better substitutes width than height and can be used as a more consistent term across the styles.

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Breck Whitworth

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Re: Visualizing
Reply #12 - Apr 24^th, 2013 at 5:15pm

OK now my head hurts, I know what everyone is saying makes sense to segmented heads, but too me obviously a pin head it is just too much to deal with. I am impressed with the detail you people go through to create these master pieces. I will stick to gluing a few pieces together to get some size then turn it into something nice if I can. You guys are in a different turning world. Maybe someday I will want to get into the pool with you. smilies=bowdown

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May the Lord Bless the work of our hands! And Necessity is the mother of invention:

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Ron Sardo

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Re: Visualizing
Reply #13 - Apr 24^th, 2013 at 5:36pm

Breck, segmented turning can be as complicated or as easy as you want it to be.

A few years ago I published an article in Woodturner's Design for segmented ornaments that only took 6 pieces for the bulb plus one piece each for the finial and cap.

I have a big project ahead of me for the next couple of days. As soon as I'm past that I'll post the instructions.

For now, if you want, take 4 blocks of wood of 2 different species and glue into a checker board cube. Make them as big or as small as you want, use any wood you got laying around. Round it over and hollow it out and you will be hooked.

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Ed Weber

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Re: Visualizing
Reply #14 - Apr 24^th, 2013 at 7:36pm

Ron Sardo wrote on Apr 24^th, 2013 at 5:36pm:

For now, if you want, take 4 blocks of wood of 2 different species and glue into a checker board cube.Make them as big or as small as you want, use any wood you got laying around. Round it over and hollow it out and you will be hooked.

Great minds must think alike.
That's the same project I suggested in the "small Lamination" thread.
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