Woodturner's Resource
Woodturner's Resource  
  • Featured Artist    • Websites   Support Wr
Tutorials, Projects & Tips   • Event Calendar   • Tool and Book Store
  Home Page Forum HelpSearch Map TPT Resources LoginRegister
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print
cuts on a chop saw (Read 2,991 times)
 
John Nicholson
Senior Member
****
Offline


Tucson, Arizona

Posts: 252

Gender: male
cuts on a chop saw
Nov 25th, 2013 at 6:29pm
 
last question today and then I'll shut up.

Made my first segmented bowl today.  Pleased enough but getting the angle was a lot of trouble.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

I would like to use the chop saw, vs. the table saw for now.  I set the angle at 30 degrees but of course the gauge is not perfect and it showed on my 6 pieces.

Can I get a little help, but please dumb it down, on how to set the angle correctly.  I am math challenged.

TIA
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 25th, 2013 at 6:39pm by John Nicholson »  

When you just can't stop-duck tape and paper towel-the best band-aid!
 
IP Logged
 
Register To Remove Ads
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 8,937

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #1 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 6:39pm
 
John Nicholson wrote on Nov 25th, 2013 at 6:29pm:
I set the angle at 30 degrees but of course the gauge is perfect and it showed on my 6 pieces.

I'm not quite sure what you are asking, the bowl looks fine.
Do you need help calculating the angles for dividing a circle into 6 or 8 or 12 etc... segments?

Please move this thread to Segmented woodturning
Thank you
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
John Nicholson
Senior Member
****
Offline


Tucson, Arizona

Posts: 252

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #2 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 6:46pm
 
thanks and sorry for the misplacement.  I don't know how to move it, maybe a mod. is supposed to move it.

Yes the angles look fine, but they were a bear to get them together.

so I need help in getting the 30 degree or 22.5 degree swing of my chop saw.  The gauge isn't perfect so when I put the six pieces together (30 degree) they didn't come close and then the sanding of them was bad, etc etc.
Back to top
  

When you just can't stop-duck tape and paper towel-the best band-aid!
 
IP Logged
 
Larry Matchett
WR Addict
*****
Offline


Be One with your Tool!

Posts: 1,588

Gulf Coast, Mississippi, Mississippi, USA
Gulf Coast, Mississippi
Mississippi
USA

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #3 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 7:46pm
 
Set your angle with a digital square.  Works really well.  HF has some cheap ones that work just fine.  I also use it to set my miter gage on my table saw.  I don't know what kind of chop saw you have but you can usually calibrate them.  Once set you are good to go.
Back to top
  
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Jim Tankersley
Active Member
***
Offline


I like the wood

Posts: 131

Tarpley, Texas, USA
Tarpley
Texas
USA

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #4 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 8:51pm
 
My response seems silly as I type it but here goes: Perhaps use your Table saw to cut a 30 degree piece and take it over to your chop saw and set the blade that way?

I know some peeps here use their miter saw for cutting segmented pieces I'm guessing because they are good quality saws but mine is junk and my TS is way better for this. A sled with a fence piece set to 30 degrees works really well for me because of my craptastic chop saw.

I wish I could remember where I got the tutorial for making a segmented pieces sled--someone here has to know off the top of their head. I will attempt to attach the gif file I acquired somewhere of the miter sled design I use if it helps.

Either way, nice first bowl! Keep it up!
Jim
Back to top
  
Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register miter_sled.gif (Attachment deleted)

The blog of our antics with goats, woodworking and housebuilding: 12MilesToUtopia.blogspot.com

Facebook: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register; for bee, woodworking, soap and goat posts
WWW JimilyFarms  
IP Logged
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 8,937

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #5 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 9:13pm
 
there are many different ways to set the angle on your saw.
A digital protractor is a good investment if you use it enough (like me)
There are also angle blocks or setup blocks. These can be anything from steel, brass, aluminum or plastic, cit at a precise angle. Angle blocks are easy and quick to use, if you buy a digital protractor you can cut your own angle blocks from MDF or some other stable material.

Some examples
Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
John Nicholson
Senior Member
****
Offline


Tucson, Arizona

Posts: 252

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #6 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 9:16pm
 
it seems like I am getting from most people "use your table saw" .

I have a sled and it has an adjustable "arm".  I guess I should bite the bullet and make the sled fit my present day TS.  and stop trying to make my chop saw do what a TS can do better.

thanks
Back to top
  

When you just can't stop-duck tape and paper towel-the best band-aid!
 
IP Logged
 
Louie Powell
WR Addict
*****
Offline



Posts: 955

Saratoga Springs, New York, USA
Saratoga Springs
New York
USA

Gender: male

PSI 12" Turncrafter Commander
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #7 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 9:18pm
 
I haven't done a lot of segmented work, but the little that I have done convinced me that table saws aren't perfect solutions to getting the angles right.  And I don't know that chop saws are all that much better.

The link below is to a video that illustrates a process that generally does work.  The basic idea is to get the angles as close as you can, but then glue up the segments to form half rings.  Allow them to dry, and then sand off the ends so that the two halves mate as closely as possible.  The individual segments may not be absolutely perfect, but the half-ring approach eliminates unsightly gaps between segments that scream imperfection.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

By the way, the shop in the video is a bit over the top, but the process can be done in more humble settings.
Back to top
  

Louie
 
IP Logged
 
Ron Sardo
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline


Chief cook and bottle
washer

Posts: 9,673

Drums, Pennsylvania, USA
Drums
Pennsylvania
USA


PM 3520
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #8 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 9:25pm
 
Glue your sections together to make a half circle then sand the ends square. one good way would be to lay a full sheet of sand paper on a very flat surface and sand the half ring until the sanding marks are all the way across. 

Then repeat with the second half.

Next dry fit the two halves together to make sure everything lines up. When they do, glue your short pieces on the ends. When its dry do one more dry fit and adjust as necessary then glue up the ring.

Its hard to tell from your photo but it looks like you have end grain glued up to side grain. If so there is a good chance for a failure along the glue line.
Back to top
  

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Jim Tankersley
Active Member
***
Offline


I like the wood

Posts: 131

Tarpley, Texas, USA
Tarpley
Texas
USA

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #9 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 9:31pm
 
+1 on Ron Sardo and gluing and truing process.
Back to top
  

The blog of our antics with goats, woodworking and housebuilding: 12MilesToUtopia.blogspot.com

Facebook: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register; for bee, woodworking, soap and goat posts
WWW JimilyFarms  
IP Logged
 
Walt Nollan
WR Addict
*****
Offline


WR Rocks!

Posts: 2,002

Hanford, California, USA
Hanford
California
USA

Gender: male

PM 3520A
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #10 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 9:38pm
 
The choice of which saw to use is purely personal.  Checking and double checking cut angles is important.  Never trust gauges on saws, they are close but not 100% accurate.  There are low cost solutions that can give very good results.  I used a protractor and a bevel gauge to check my angles when I first started segmenting I the early 90's.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Bob Hamilton
WR Addict
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,118

Forest, Ontario, Canada, Ontario, Canada
Forest, Ontario, Canada
Ontario
Canada

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #11 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 10:56pm
 
Hi:
I don't do a lot of segmenting, but when I do I usually cut the angles on the chop saw and then glue up two half rings, the way several others have mentioned.  Instead of sanding the final two joints, though, I use a straight line cutting sled on the table saw to trim the half rings.  It is simply a piece of plywood with a runner on the bottom that fits into the miter slot of the saw.  The runner is applied a little further from the edge of the plywood sled than the distance from the blade to the miter slot, so the first time the sled is run through the saw the plywood is trimmed exactly parallel to the miter slot and exactly the distance from the blade to the slot.

A half ring is fastened to the sled with the ends _just_ overhanging the edge of the plywood.  When the sled passes through the table saw the ends are trimmed to a straight line.  The other ring is cut the same way and that leaves the two half rings with ends that will mate for the final glue up. 

Okay, I just remembered I had a picture of the straight line jig: 

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

Depending on how much accumulated error has built up in the ring you might be removing enough material to make the ring a bit eccentric.  That is usually not a problem for a single ring but can make alignment of joints an issue when stacking several rings.

Good Luck!
Bob
Back to top
  
WWW  
IP Logged
 
steve rost
Senior Member
****
Offline


Jigaholic

Posts: 436

Mansfield, Texas, USA
Mansfield
Texas
USA

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #12 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 7:56am
 
All good advice above.  The only thing I will add is I use both a table saw with a sled, and a miter saw.  The majority of segments cut on the TS.  Some feature ring segments are more easily cut on a MS.  Also, after you set up your TS/MS cut a test ring from scrap that is dimensioned to the size ring you want.  That (scrap) ring is useful several different ways and cheaper than your premium wood if you have an error.
Back to top
  

One measure of a great craftsman is how well he can hide his mistakes!
 
IP Logged
 
Register To Remove Ads
John Nicholson
Senior Member
****
Offline


Tucson, Arizona

Posts: 252

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #13 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 9:40am
 
I  glued up in two's and then the half circle, I tried to sand the half ring on a flat surface, but found that I wasn't keeping it true and it took a long time, I had the best results with the half circle on a disc sander.  The straight line cutting jig for the TS seems interesting.

Thanks all
Back to top
  

When you just can't stop-duck tape and paper towel-the best band-aid!
 
IP Logged
 
Walt Nollan
WR Addict
*****
Offline


WR Rocks!

Posts: 2,002

Hanford, California, USA
Hanford
California
USA

Gender: male

PM 3520A
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #14 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 10:33am
 
Although the same T.S. jig can be used on the disc sander, I free hand it on the disc sander untill I can see no light through the joints.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Bob Hamilton
WR Addict
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,118

Forest, Ontario, Canada, Ontario, Canada
Forest, Ontario, Canada
Ontario
Canada

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #15 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 11:48am
 
I forgot to mention that when I use the straight line cutting jig I cut one half ring face up and the second one face down so that the joint will still close even if the blade is a hair off vertical.

Bob
Back to top
  
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 8,937

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #16 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 12:32pm
 
Bob Hamilton wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 11:48am:
I forgot to mention that when I use the straight line cutting jig I cut one half ring face up and the second one face down so that the joint will still close even if the blade is a hair off vertical.

Bob brings up a good point about cutting and sanding.
I do this when sanding individual segments as well. I number all my segments so I always have a reference, this also helps when sanding. Sand one glue face right side up and then flip and sand the opposing face upside down for the reason mentioned above. Even a 1/10 degree off will look like the grand canyon since any error will be doubled when the segments are joined together.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
John Heyd
WR Noob
Offline


Segmented Wood Turners
spin

Posts: 11

Brentwood, California, USA
Brentwood
California
USA

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #17 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 5:49pm
 
John everyone is talking half circles - but I have to be honest with you, I do a ton of segmented work and I find that if I do a good enough job with the angles ( I typically use a wixie dig. protractor) I can glue and clamp up my rings in one step using a hose clamp.  Yes I know there are a lot of people out there who still think the half ring system is the cats meow but listen, if you do a good job of setting your swing fence correctly (do a test run with scrap wood) and if necessary adjust your fence as needed, believe me you can cut a lot of good fitting pieces all the time.   I just finished an 800 piece bowl, cut with my table saw sled, (36 segments per ring) without sanding a single segment.   It just takes patience and practice.   I know you can do it.   Good luck.  Smiley  By the way, Rockler has plastic angle blocks for $29 which are pretty good.   You may want to look at them. 
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 26th, 2013 at 5:53pm by John Heyd »  
 
IP Logged
 
Chris Neilan
WR Addict
*****
Offline


OUCH!

Posts: 999

Waterford, Connecticut, USA
Waterford
Connecticut
USA

Gender: male

Powermatic 3520
Delta 46-460
Shopsmith 10 ER
Shopsmith Mark V
Shopsmith Mark 7 Powerpro
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #18 - Nov 26th, 2013 at 11:25pm
 
What I have done is to glue up the ring and when dry cut through the offending joint (and the joint on the opposite side). The ring will now mate perfectly (in a perfect world that is).
Back to top
  

Delta 46-460: awesome
Powermatic 3520: more awesome!
Shopsmith Mark 7: Wonderful! (But I don't use it as a lathe yet)
Shopsmith Mark V
Shopsmith 10ER
 
IP Logged
 
steve rost
Senior Member
****
Offline


Jigaholic

Posts: 436

Mansfield, Texas, USA
Mansfield
Texas
USA

Gender: male
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #19 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 9:17am
 
Thumbs Up What John Heyd said.  I have said it many times before in this forum.  I am not into 1/4 or1/2 rings. Your ring will be slightly elliptical.  Work for accuracy.  I'll shut up now!
Back to top
  

One measure of a great craftsman is how well he can hide his mistakes!
 
IP Logged
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 8,937

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #20 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 10:32am
 
steve rost wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 9:17am:
Thumbs Up What John Heyd said.  I have said it many times before in this forum.  I am not into 1/4 or1/2 rings. Your ring will be slightly elliptical.  Work for accuracy.

I agree with that to a point. I try to be as accurate as possible, but it doesn't always work out that way.

A word of caution, depending on how much is need to be trimmed or sanded away, this can effect alignment between layers, since some segments are now shorter than others.
If possible, try some test cuts with less expensive wood to dial in the angles. Assemble and check 1/4 or 1/2 rings for accuracy. You should be able to tell if your settings are good with a 1/4 ring. If your angles seem off a bit, adjust now before cutting the entire ring from more expensive woods.
Once you are satisfied with these settings, save them somehow. I like to leave my saw alone until I'm done the whole project, but sometimes this just isn't possible. Write down you settings, cut and mark templates at standard cutting angles, 22.5, 30, etc. This will make it much easier and faster in the future. This can be a bit time consuming but you should only need to do it once.
If it's not possible to glue everything at once, you should only need a small amount of touch-up sanding to achieve a tight fit.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Ron Sardo
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline


Chief cook and bottle
washer

Posts: 9,673

Drums, Pennsylvania, USA
Drums
Pennsylvania
USA


PM 3520
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #21 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 11:12am
 
1/4 or 1/2 rings are a good way for beginners to start. Once you get comfortable, get the process down and worked out the bugs you may be able to do a full ring. I worked with full rings on my Ebony and Holly piece.

One of the things I had to relearned was wood moves. Your piece may be cut perfect today but if you leave it on the table saw and then do a glue up the next day you may find a 0.5º difference on each piece.

Back to top
  

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 8,937

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #22 - Nov 27th, 2013 at 12:06pm
 
Ron Sardo wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 11:12am:
One of the things I had to relearned was wood moves. Your piece may be cut perfect today but if you leave it on the table saw and then do a glue up the next day you may find a 0.5º difference on each piece.

This can't be mentioned enough, WOOD MOVES!
This is why when I see people with a dial indicator trying to tweak their tools to some crazy number of decimal points, I just have to shake my head. It's good to have an accurate starting point, I like my tools to be as close to perfect as possible, within reason, but don't go too extreme.
As soon as you add the glue (moisture) the wood starts to swell and move. Changes in humidity and even your breath can cause wood movement. Any one of these things can throw off your finely tuned segments. You can't fight it, you just have to learn to work with it.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2013 at 12:07pm by Ed Weber »  
 
IP Logged
 
Bert Delisle
WR Addict
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,424

Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Calgary
Alberta
Canada

Gender: male

Vicmarc 300
Re: cuts on a chop saw
Reply #23 - Nov 28th, 2013 at 10:39am
 
on either machine it may be worth considering the saw blade quality.I have recently purchased a new TS blade that does Glue joint ready surface. wow, it was a bit more cost but now no sanding, just fiddle with angle until it is right.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print