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Critiques on work (Read 2,250 times)
Ralph Fahringer
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #15 - Apr 8th, 2016 at 3:41pm
 
Yeah, cow art is so lame!

I prefer the elephant art myself!! Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
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Breck Whitworth
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #16 - Apr 8th, 2016 at 7:34pm
 
Larry Matchett wrote on Apr 8th, 2016 at 2:34pm:
I encourage all turners to study the principals and elements of art.

Larry told me that exact thing after a club meeting one day. Larry is the president of our local wood turning club and a former art teacher for many years. He told me, Breck your mechanical skills have gotten very good I think it is time you begin to consider the art aspect also. Greatest single piece of advice I personally have ever gotten. From that day on I began to study and learn about form and all the serious art stuff. Do I use it all now, of course not but it has influenced my work to a great degree. I can never seem to see a piece of work the same any more, because for me personally it opened my eyes to a world of knowledge. I only say all this because his comment about my work was the catalyst for me to make serious improvements on many of my pieces. Again it is your personal choice to use or not use advice that is given to you. I really don't want the art or not art argument to become the focus of this post. Only that turners consider the benefits of critiques and comments as a tool for personal improvement.
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Ron Sardo
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #17 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:41am
 
Larry Matchett wrote on Apr 8th, 2016 at 2:34pm:
Critiques come in two parts. Craft critiques and Artistic critiques

In my opinion... a critique is a critique, although I would concede that a craft critique is more about technique then it is about art.

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A careful judgment in which you give your opinion about the good and bad parts of something (such as a piece of writing or a work of art).

Critique is an alteration of an archaic word that referred generally to criticism. Critique itself dates to the early 18th century and originally referred to a piece of writing that criticized a literary or artistic work. The words criticism, critique, and review overlap in meaning. Criticism usually means "the act of criticizing" or a "remark or comment that expresses disapproval," but it can also refer to the activity of making judgments about the qualities of books, movies, etc. (as in "literary criticism").Critique is a somewhat formal word that typically refers to a careful judgment in which someone gives an opinion about something. Review can refer to an essay analyzing a literary or artistic work, but can also sometimes imply a more casual or personal opinion.


I've had woodturners ask me to critique their work and to be brutality honest because they "can take it."  Sadly half the times they were offended and luckily the other half they were appreciative. So I've learned the hard way that the best way to give a critique is to start with something positive, then suggest something that can be improved, then finish on a positive note. I feel this formula would work on any type of critique.

The one thing I feel that needs to be mentioned is that a public critique not only helps the recipient but everyone that reads the review as well.

Having an art degree I can tell you that while I was in school I've was the recipient some brutal and positive critiques from both my teachers and fellow students. The same held true when I first started turning. I can honestly say that I have grown not only because of the honestly, but also the time the person took to care enough to give me a critique.
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Breck Whitworth
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #18 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 11:15am
 
Great point Ron, Maybe the format you and others have mentioned can become the standard operating procedure for critiques and comments in the future: 1. start with a positive  2. Give the negative if needed then 3. end with a positive
I know when people are kind it helps in most things we deal with in life. The last thing I will say is again the only way I learned some things was from critiques and to be honest negative comments about the way I was doing something. The good/positive comments encouraged me to keep on trucking, but the negative helped me to see I could change some aspect and improve.
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May the Lord Bless the work of our hands! And Necessity is the mother of invention:
 
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Ed Weber
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #19 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 12:30pm
 
Breck Whitworth wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 11:15am:
The last thing I will say is again the only way I learned some things was from critiques and to be honest negative comments about the way I was doing something. The good/positive comments encouraged me to keep on trucking, but the negative helped me to see I could change some aspect and improve.


People who put there work "out there" to be critiqued need to remember that very point.

I have heard the 'I can take it" line, only to be followed up after the critique by, "he doesn't know what he's talking about".
Your part in the critique process is that you must be willing to hear what is being said during a critique, the good the bad and the ugly. Take in all information and then decide what to do with it, just don't dismiss anything out of hand.
You may be surprised what can be helpful.
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John Grace
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #20 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 12:59pm
 
Ed...You're quite right and there's that fine line right?  One person's critique is another's scathing criticism.  I manage people at my job and I find so many of the disagreements between folks revolve around what was said, what was intended, and what was/was not heard.  Ironic isn't it?  We as turners will spend hour upon hour working a piece until it's just so and yet we'll type at light-speed and hit the dreaded 'post message' without reviewing the temerity and tenor our words may carry.
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“If history were taught in the form of stories, it would never be forgotten.”  Kipling
 
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Paul Gilbert
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #21 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 6:25pm
 
I believe that on most of the forums of which I am familiar there is way to much way too much "atta boys" by people just trying to run their post number up.   Honest, helpful criticism is sadly lacking.  Criticism can be both positive and negative.  If you really want constructive criticism, ask for it in the body of your text.  If you want criticism from experts, post on WOW.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #22 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 7:01pm
 
Paul Gilbert wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 6:25pm:
I believe that on most of the forums of which I am familiar there is way to much way too much "atta boys" by people just trying to run their post number up.   Honest, helpful criticism is sadly lacking.  Criticism can be both positive and negative.  If you really want constructive criticism, ask for it in the body of your text. If you want criticism from experts, post on WOW.


I don't know why you would want to run your post number up, it's not as if there's a prize.  Roll Eyes I do agree that excessive positive feedback is not helpful.
IMO The discussion has been very positive and constructive thus far but I have to say the comment about asking for expert criticism on WOW is a bit offensive.
I am not a member of WOW but I do know there are members here with enough expertise to give critiques when asked.
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Larry Matchett
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #23 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 8:08pm
 
I agree if you want an artistic critique post on WOW.  If you want an atta boy/girl post here.  I consider this site a great site for beginning or intermediate turners and to learn about new tools etc.  If you want to move into the realm of art then post on WOW.  If you would like to join Ed let me know and I will send you an invite.  That also goes for anyone else.  By the way Breck has moved on to post on WOW and I think has and will benefit from it.  It's all good Ed don't be offended.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #24 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 8:30pm
 
I really appreciate your post Larry, I mean that sincerely.
I was not offended for myself, rather the other members. In a thread where one of the themes is how to be tactful in giving a critique, I though Paul's post missed the mark a bit. Indirectly implying that no one here has enough expertise to give a critique, I respectfully disagree.
I know that there are vast differences between the two forums but some people wouldn't have been able to move to WOW if it weren't (at least in part) for here.
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Larry Matchett
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #25 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 8:45pm
 
AGREE!!! Thumbs Up
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Steve Doerr
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #26 - Apr 14th, 2016 at 10:49pm
 
Great discussion everyone.  I appreciate Breck getting this started.  Giving or receiving a critique is not easy.  One you try to walk on egg shells without breaking too many and the other you need to have a little bit of a thick skin because you know some egg shells will be broken.  The other important thing, and Ralph said this early on, don't make it personal attack and don't take it as a personal attack.
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william trench
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #27 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 6:15am
 
Personally, I am in this for the art and the process. I have pretty much given up trying to market my stuff because as soon as I try to put a value on a piece and calculate the range where it will sell and figure in the commission or booth fee ( which sometimes put me on the wrong side of the typical 50% commission point)  , it all goes out the window. It was the focus and effort to make things that people would buy that turned me off. I had enough stress satisfying clients making cabinets and furniture over the years.
I have my own standards and parameters for what I  to do to any particular piece of wood. Would I be offended if you told me you didn't like it for some reason ? No. If you said I should have done this or that ? No. If you told me that I could have bleached it for a more dramatic result or used a different filler to accent or blend or maybe added a fine bead or burn line right there , I'd appreciate it.
One person a while ago posted a question, asking if their work was good enough. Part of me felt that if they had to ask, then they were probably not going too far with this "craft", and part of me felt that the proper answer was to keep plugging away and working on technique until they were satisfied. The responses that were posted were appropriate and hopefully helpful.
If someone posted a picture of a bowl they made and asked for critique and I replied that I thought it was thick,heavy, and out of proportion would I be out of line ? I believe so, and would not share that. On the other hand , does a round chunk of wood with a depression in it  deserve an "attaboy " ? Maybe not, but it does deserve encouragement.
I think the answer is simple : If you are thin skinned and would be insulted by a negative review, don't ask. If not elicited, a negative comment would certainly be  inappropriate. Don't ask, don't tell ?
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Ron Sardo
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #28 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 8:44am
 
william trench wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 6:15am:
If someone posted a picture of a bowl they made and asked for critique and I replied that I thought it was thick,heavy, and out of proportion would I be out of line ? I believe so

I certainly hope not.

william trench wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 6:15am:
I think the answer is simple : If you are thin skinned and would be insulted by a negative review, don't ask. If not elicited, a negative comment would certainly be  inappropriate.

Agreed.

Paul Gilbert wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 6:25pm:
f you want criticism from experts, post on WOW

There are many former (and present) WOW members on this forum, just saying.
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william trench
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Re: Critiques on work
Reply #29 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 10:14am
 
"would I be out of line ? I believe so

I certainly hope not."

Hope I wouldn't believe so ?
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