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60 Piece Ring Glue UP (Read 816 times)
 
Rick Haverstock
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60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Mar 12th, 2017 at 5:11pm
 
Hello Everyone,

About to attempt my first 60 piece per ring closed segment bowl and wondered what you all were using for glue up techniques. For the 48 and less segments per ring I have been gluing up pairs until I have half rings and then gluing them together. I'd like to speed up the process but feel that there's no way I can do a single glue up with 60 pieces at once. Looked at Denny Edward's site and he has a nice jig (black and gold bowl) for the process. Has anyone used this particular one? Are there any other techniques or jigs that you could share ? Thanks for your help !

Rick
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Ed Weber
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #1 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 7:06pm
 
Gluing up an entire ring all at once is like turning a bowl "really thin", it doesn't mean much.

IMO, the number of segments doesn't matter as much as size.
What height and what diameter is the ring you're constructing. Depending on the height of you ring and your starting stock, you can make pairs until you have quarter or half rings and then slice them on the bandsaw. This literally cuts you work by half or more.There are times when this won't be applicable of course.
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Grant Wilkinson
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #2 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 8:04am
 
Denny's black and gold bowl is open segment, Rick. Are you referring to the small jig that he used for the base? If so, I've used a similar one to do the base of a open segmented bowl, with a closed segment base. It worked well. It's really only a way to glue up quarter circles in one go, rather than gluing up a pair at a time, but I liked it. Since it only works on the base, it didn't save a lot of time.
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Rick Haverstock
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #3 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 11:20am
 
Ed and Grant,

Ed:  Should have been more specific. Rings are 3/16" thick and not more than 11" OD.  Pattern in bowl would not allow for ring splitting.

Grant: Yes, was referring to Denny's jig for the base.  Thought that I might bandsaw a semi-circle for the inside of the ring and use the outside radius 1/4 circle as shown in his video. I do have a bandsaw and a spindle sander and I am dangerous....  Just looking for a fresh idea or two to a problem that I can't get my arms around.

Rick
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Ed Weber
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #4 - Mar 13th, 2017 at 12:41pm
 
If you can't do ring splitting, you're going to have to make some type of sub assembly.
Shat pattern are you making?
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Rick Haverstock
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #5 - Mar 14th, 2017 at 9:35am
 
Ed,  My interpretation of a really nice Ad Gouwerok piece with lily petals.
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« Last Edit: Mar 14th, 2017 at 9:37am by Rick Haverstock »  
 
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Ed Weber
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #6 - Mar 14th, 2017 at 10:17am
 
So, you want to take this pattern (now in open segment) and use in on a standard segmented bowl.
You sort of put yourself in a no win situation.
With an odd number pattern, in this case five, there is no real way of using halves or splitting that will help in making a single bowl. If you change the pattern to an even number, at least you could make halves and split them.
Sometimes there are just no short cuts. the more intricate the pattern, many times that means the more time consuming the construction. Hopefully that translates into the finished product.
I see you posted this over at The Segmented Woodturners forum with no replies so far. It may be simply because there is no "short cut" for this. (that I'm aware of) But, If anyone knows a the answer to your question, they will.
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Rick Haverstock
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #7 - Mar 14th, 2017 at 1:03pm
 
Ed,

Thanks for all your thoughts on the process.  I've already translated the pattern to a closed segment form in Segment Pro (GREAT program by the way).  I'm leaning towards the closed segment version as (1) it seems more practical for a bowl that will be used and (2) I don't have the jigs necessary to do a 60 segment open piece.  Design is not the problem; the 60 piece glue up is.  Glue up of pairs is in my skill set.  I'm really just looking for any tips that would keep the symmetry of the rings up and give me a better finished piece.  With 120 mating surfaces per ring, I'd like to keep any errors to the minimum.

Rick
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #8 - Mar 14th, 2017 at 1:38pm
 
Rick Haverstock wrote on Mar 14th, 2017 at 1:03pm:
Glue up of pairs is in my skill set.  I'm really just looking for any tips that would keep the symmetry of the rings up and give me a better finished piece.


I understand what you're after.
Nothing wrong with gluing in pairs and so on. You can make a simple template, like a pie with a wedge cut out. Something to gauge each 1/4 ring or whatever.

It's much easier to "adjust" any errors on smaller sub-assemblies like 1/4 rings or in your case, glue 5 segments together to get a sub-assembly and reference to a known 30 degree angle. Glue 3 sub assemblies of 5 together and check again to be sure that you're at 90 degrees.
Ultimately the symmetry of the ring is determined how well you cut the pieces and how ell you glue them together. Sometimes a jig can be more trouble and time consuming than it's worth.

Good luck
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Rick Haverstock
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue Up REDEAUX
Reply #9 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 7:11pm
 
I've been playing in the shop for the last few days and may have come up with a solution to the problem of too many segments and too little time.  I took Denny Edwards' base jig, added one part, and test glued three trial rings, all of which are perfect. 

Made up a simple jig with two cleats at an exact 90 degree angle.  Measured inside and outside diameters of the rubber-banded ring, converted that to the inside and outside radius and laid out the arcs on a piece of 1/4 luan underlayment left over from a kitchen remodel. Bandsawed close to the lines and finished that up with my spindle sander.  Made sure to cover the surfaces that touched glue with some packing tape (based on some of my past mistakes). 

Glue up was fast and easy, less than 5 minutes for a 15 piece quarter ring.  Results were perfectly square as shown in the pic.

I realize that ring glue up is a necessary evil, but if I can do it accurately and quickly it becomes less of a pain.  Timing myself, I can do a full ring using the jig in a little over 2 hours.  It's about a 10-15 minute job to layout, cut and sand the arc parts.   Glue up of pairs with rub joints takes a little more than four hours based on 50 piece rings.  Seems like an easy choice to me.  Your comments and critiques are invited.

Rick
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Ed Weber
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #10 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 9:46am
 
As I mentioned earlier
Ed Weber wrote on Mar 14th, 2017 at 1:38pm:
It's much easier to "adjust" any errors on smaller sub-assemblies like 1/4 rings

I see you have taken thigs a step further. I'm glad it's working for you.

The only "problem" I see, is that you need to cut a form for any ring of a different diameter. On many pieces every ring can have a different diameter.
You can easily find yourself making forms not segments or making larger than necessary rings (because you have a form that size) and turning them down.
This is the type of thing I meant when I said

Ed Weber wrote on Mar 14th, 2017 at 1:38pm:
Sometimes a jig can be more trouble and time consuming than it's worth.


There are no short cuts in segmented woodworking.

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Rick Haverstock
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #11 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 10:35am
 
I see where you're coming from Ed. However, at 15 minutes or less to make a new form, I don't really see that as a great drawback for an increase in overall assembly speed and greater accuracy. Besides, I have a lot of left-over Luan to work with  Grin

As far as making rings oversize to re-use the form, even Tom Lohman (whose work I really admire)has admitted to making oversize rings to un-complicate the cutting process. We all have our differing priorities.  I'd rather be standing at the lathe cutting down oversize rings than rub jointing together pairs of exact-sized ones.  As Sly and the Family Stone once said, "Different strokes for different folks". I agree that there are no shortcuts in segmenting, but I want to spend my shop time doing the things that I like best (which does not include rub jointing pairs of segments).

Rick
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #12 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 12:00pm
 
You do what you want, I'm just offering some words of caution. (for everyone)

Some pieces have dozens of layers of rings, making 20-30 curved forms just seems excessive to me.
There is nothing wrong with making rings oversized, works fine for filling in a large field of background color.
There are many times however when this is not a useful method. Things like feature alignment or grain following, where you need to see what you're doing during assembly, rather than discover what's there after you've turned enough material away.

The point is that just about any of the "time saving" procedures are limited to where they can be applied. Unless you are doing some type of production run (there are times this is necessary) each piece usually has it's own challenges.
Each challenge can translate into new sleds, jig, guides, fixtures, cauls, clamping methods, etc.
I would hate for people to think that just because "X" worked on one piece, it will work on another.
Please post your finished piece once completed, thanks
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Rick Haverstock
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #13 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:30pm
 
Ed,

Your words of caution are well-taken here.  In my defense, I would note that my dad was an industrial engineer, or time-study man.  He could analyze a complicated manufacturing process and figure out how to speed things up without sacrificing quality.  He did manage to pass most of that thought process on to me.  If I spend 10- 15 minutes per jig to make a flat and tight ring it's time well-spent when it can reduce the overall production time by nearly 50 percent.  To me, that's pure time savings on a part of the segmenting process that I'm not particularly fond of, not just a shortcut to speed things up.   I will be posting a finished pic or two, but boating season is about to start here in Chicago and I have 75 feet of hull to clean and buff and an engine that needs to be re-commissioned.  And I have to re-paper four large shoji screens and re-build about 50 feet of fence.  How did I get all this stuff done before I retired ??

Rick Haverstock
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Ed Weber
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Re: 60 Piece Ring Glue UP
Reply #14 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 4:39pm
 
Rick Haverstock wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:30pm:
In my defense,


No need to take a defensive stance, what ever works best for you is the right way in your shop.
I'm only trying to answer your question as well as inform others reading this thread.
There as as many ways to get to the final result as there are turners.
As far as getting projects finished, you're talking to the wrong guy. I have an equally daunting list.
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