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Coring systems (Read 990 times)
 
Bert Delisle
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #15 - May 1st, 2017 at 8:44am
 
Ed Weber wrote on Apr 30th, 2017 at 1:44pm:
robo_hippy wrote on Apr 30th, 2017 at 12:32pm:
Any one who has used the McNaughton swears at it.... Those who know how to use it swear by it.


Good One  Thumbs Up


Well said Robo, couldn't agree more. Thumbs Up
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Ed Weber
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #16 - May 1st, 2017 at 9:16am
 
John Grace wrote on May 1st, 2017 at 8:43am:
Though possibly true, it does beg another question.  Based on comments both here and elsewhere, the McNaughton does seem to have the higher learning curve and there's the regular 'collecting dust' comments as well.  All that taken together and from what I've seen in the videos and how the unit works, the Oneway may be the better of the two systems for the turner who only uses it once every now and again.  If the McNaughton does require a learning curve, is it possible that the Oneway would serve the occasional user a better option?  Just a thought...


That's entirely true.

IMO
The Main difference in determining which is "better" regardless of who uses it or how often, is it's overall performance. (What is it capable of)
The OneWay and Woodcut systems don't allow the user to change the shape of the core being cut. This is the big sticking point for me. As a woodworker, craftsman, artist or whatever you call yourself, you want to have as much control over your materials as possible.
"You can core any bowl you want, as long as it's this shape", sound familiar?

It's one thing to purchase one tool over another because it's easier to operate.
It's another thing to choose one tool over another that may be easier to use but doesn't have the same capabilities. Then you're not really comparing the same things because the tools aren't capable of doing the same things.


I personally find the entire discussion about the McNaughton "learning curve" to be extremely overblown. Do you have to pay attention to what you're doing, yes, how horrible.  Roll Eyes The benefit is that you are in control of the final product. If that sort of thing doesn't appeal to you and you have more of a production turner mindset. Maybe one of the systems that produce identical cores with less of a learning curve is better suited to you.
As with everything, it's personal choice, one size does not fit all.
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Tom Coghill
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #17 - May 1st, 2017 at 9:51am
 
If you are going to use it a lot (and it sounds like you will) in my opinion you should get the oneway.  Since it is so easy and quick, I core almost everything.  Even a 4 inch core is valuable.  It is an exceptional way to check out your finishes before putting them on the larger bowl.

Remember it is a tool.  The oneway have replacement tips so it never wears out.  Being a tool, it has re-sale value.

Get good quality tools and you will never look back!

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« Last Edit: May 1st, 2017 at 9:54am by Tom Coghill »  
 
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Glenn lefley
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #18 - May 3rd, 2017 at 4:40pm
 
Does anyone have a coring system collecting "dust" they would like to part with?
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« Last Edit: May 3rd, 2017 at 4:41pm by Glenn lefley »  
 
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Tom Coghill
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #19 - May 3rd, 2017 at 6:24pm
 
Glenn, IDK about the McNaughton, but the oneway has a base that is fit to the lathe swing.  You will need a base for a 20-inch lathe.  The knives are then interchangeable, that is they work on any of the bases.

Good Luck! Thumbs Up
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robo_hippy
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #20 - May 24th, 2017 at 12:14am
 
Well, the computer is letting me back on the site. No idea why.... Any way, two points:

I have argued this with Kel McNaughton, and he does not agree. The bends on his blades are fine till about the last inch or 1 1/2 inch. If you have a good eye, you can see it, or of not (or you need glasses), you can lay them out on a circle template. The last bit goes straight rather than follow the curve of the arc the blade is bent to. Not a problem if you are only coring a few inches in. Problem if you are going 6 or more inches because the blade always drifts to the outside of the cut since it will follow the tip which is straight, and not the arc. I have bent the tip in a bit on a couple of my blades and they follow the curve much better. In looking in to getting my own made, if you bend for a perfect arc, you always plan to cut an inch or two off the top because it is extremely difficult to get leverage at the very end of the bar stock. Since the ends have to be profiled, this presents an as yet unsolved problem. Most of us just learn to deal with it...

The Oneway is a good system, but I never liked the tip. The idea is that the point breaks the fiber, and then the sides clear/cut the rest away. I had them send me a hardened top that didn't have the point ground on it yet. I ground a taper on the sides, and left a straight across bevel on the end. It cut a lot better, and was more aggressive when cutting. They said that is why they didn't sell it that way to the general public. If you just hone the top of the cutter like they want, you don't get a scraper burr, and all coring blades are scrapers. In just about all woods, the burr cuts better than a honed top. Add to that if you have the bevel and not the point, you don't have to remove it from the blade to sharpen it, which is a bother...

robo hippy
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Tom Coghill
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #21 - May 24th, 2017 at 10:57am
 
Robo - can you post a photo of the modified cutter tip for the oneway system?

Thanks!
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robo_hippy
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #22 - May 24th, 2017 at 5:17pm
 
Tom, that is beyond my skill level..... Any tip for the Oneway needs the screw hole, and the grooves on the bottom. So, the end is about 3/8 wide, and tapers to the back where it is maybe a hair wider then the support arm. 70 degree bevel, and it sticks out 1/4 inch from the end of the support arm, or as far as the point on the standard cutter does. Hope that description helps. I don't know if they would sell one that way to any one else or not.

robo hippy
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Ed Weber
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #23 - May 25th, 2017 at 9:22am
 
robo_hippy wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 12:14am:
I have argued this with Kel McNaughton, and he does not agree.

Well, I have to go with Kel on this.
I've looked at my cutters and while the area at the cutting tip does straighten out a bit (less than an inch) it's not an issue for me.
The cutting tip is about twice as wide as the tool bar, leaving ample room in the kerf for the small amount of extra width added by the straightened profile at the tip. I haven't found that it interferes with anything.
robo_hippy wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 12:14am:
Most of us just learn to deal with it...

I think I may have just adopted my technique and I don't notice ite as a problem, just the nature of the beast.

I do agree with you that the cutting tip geometry could use some tweaking. The angle of attack could/should be changed to help the tip from wanting to drift outward would be one place to start.

robo_hippy wrote on May 24th, 2017 at 12:14am:
If you just hone the top of the cutter like they want, you don't get a scraper burr, and all coring blades are scrapers.

I have also always been confused by the many people and manufactures that think honing the flat only and not addressing the grind of a cutting edge is an effective way to sharpen. While this technique is arguably easier and straight forward to explain, it doesn't usually work very well.  (that's an entire discussion itself)
I have always sharpened mine by filing/honing the sides, leaving a burr on the top. I guess I never read the part that I was supposed to hone the top.
JMO
Just in case anyone has read this far, these are some of the things that (for some) add to the alleged learning curve.
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robo_hippy
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #24 - May 25th, 2017 at 10:30am
 
If the tip on the McNaughton went perfectly with the curve, you could one continuous cut all the way to the bottom of the deepest cut without having to widen the kerf. No fishtailing as Mike Mahoney says. The straight part of the blade is why the blade ALWAYS drifts to the outside of the cut as you go in. This is part of the learning curve.

As far as tip geometry goes, square across the top works best for me, maybe a slight arc to it. Spear point doesn't add anything to the process.

robo hipppy
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Ed Weber
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #25 - May 25th, 2017 at 11:33am
 
robo_hippy wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 10:30am:
Spear point doesn't add anything to the process.

I agree, IMO it actually hurts it. Too much cutting edge for a small kerf, you're trying to remove too much material at once. It actually has the opposite effect of what you might think, it slows down the cut rather than speeds it up.
A single straight cutting edge has less cutting surface, less resistance makes for an easier cut.

robo_hippy wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 10:30am:
The straight part of the blade is why the blade ALWAYS drifts to the outside of the cut as you go in.

We'll just agree to disagree on this.
IMO the reason the blade "drifts" toward the outside has to do with the rotational force of the blank and the operator.
The spinning blank wants to force the cut outward, the operator must counteract this by pushing the cut inward. In theory, anything behind the cutting tip (the widest point) shouldn't matter. If there is a small straight section, it shouldn't have any effect on the cut, provided it stays centered (doesn't touch the sides of the kerf). As long as the tip goes where the handle directs it without binding in the kerf, everything should work regardless of shape or curvature.

I think as an experiment I would try a single cutting edge, angled slightly (15 degrees) inward. Having the point on the outside of the blade, cutting edge on the inside would help the blade from "drifting" since there is no cutting edge on the outside it should act more like a bevel rubbing or support.
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robo_hippy
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #26 - May 25th, 2017 at 2:59pm
 
Well Ed, the Woodcut and Oneway systems do not want to drift, or feel like they are trying to drift. I will admit that while I have used both, I use the McNaughton 99% of the time. There is a lot of flex in the McNaughton system, blades bend a bit and tool rest T or now D will flex under load, and that may contribute a tiny bit to the drift, but the blades I have that I have tweaked don't drift. One that was bent a tiny bit too far actually drifts to the inside. With the original McNaughton blades where the cutting tip was all over on the out board side rather than centered like the newer spear points, I ground it beveled to the inside, the outside, square and round. there was no difference in the drifting tendencies. The spear point made it easier to correct the drift and trim off a little bit on the inside of the cut, but still for deeper cuts, you have to widen the kerf.

robo hippy
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Ed Weber
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #27 - May 25th, 2017 at 3:26pm
 
robo_hippy wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 2:59pm:
There is a lot of flex in the McNaughton system, blades bend a bit and tool rest T or now D will flex under load, and that may contribute a tiny bit to the drift, but the blades I have that I have tweaked don't drift.

Good to know, I have a feeling that some blades have a more pronounced straight area at the end than others. On my standard set it is noticeable and on the smaller set it isn't so noticeable to the naked eye, I haven't compared drift.
I suppose controlling the flex is part of that darn learning curve again  Grin
Thanks for the info.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #28 - May 25th, 2017 at 6:16pm
 
So, to satisfy my curiosity after Reed got me thinking about this, I went and did a little test.
Here's why the straight section Reed mentioned makes to cutter drift.
The point of the cutter MUST be in the center of the kerf to work properly If anything a small amount to the inside but definitely not to the outside, that's when the problems occur.
I can only guess that when they are assembling the cutting tip onto the curved bar, some vise or holding device straightens that small section of the bar which moves the center point towards the outside, that's bad. This is also why when Reed gave his a slight bend back inward they cut better. He basically put the point back where it should have been in the first place.
If the point is not directly in the center it is  "dog-tracking' or 'yawing" in the kerf. This takes constant correction by the turner and makes the tool more difficult to use.  You also wind up with wider kerfs by having to back off and re-establish the cut.
I would suggest doing a test cut in about an inch or so and see if the point is in the center of the kerf, if not, adjust as Reed described in his earlier post.
That's what I found out.
Hope it helps
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robo_hippy
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Re: Coring systems
Reply #29 - May 26th, 2017 at 12:04am
 
If you have ever tried to remove the nub left when the core pops out, your tip can be at center height, but as soon as it touches the nub, it can drop up to an inch because of the flex. I think this is one of the reasons that we can get so much chatter some times, especially in harder woods. When the tip starts cutting, it goes down below the center line, which is not good for scrapers. My tips are generally 1/4 to 1/2 inch above center when I start, and as I get near the end of the core, I can now 'feel' when the cutter is below center. Lots of practice..... Figuring out how to get the perfect curve isn't easy. Latest thought would be to cut laser cut the blanks from a rotating tube of proper diameter, programming in the scoop for the nose, and the tang, then bending the tang part straight. Still working on it...

robo hippy
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