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Gluing a block for a faceplate (Read 655 times)
 
Keith Jenkins
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Gluing a block for a faceplate
Jul 26th, 2017 at 3:30pm
 
Alright guys here is my problem.  I have tried gluing a sacrificial block to a blank and have had no luck.  I have tried super glue, CA glue, and Epoxy.  Seems I cannot get them to hold especially on green wood.  Are there any tips that you all use?  I hate having to remove extra material to get rid of screw holes.  thanks.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #1 - Jul 26th, 2017 at 4:30pm
 
In my experience,
I would normally use a standard PVA woodworkers glue like Titebond.
BUT
Gluing green wood, which is by it's nature wet, is going to eliminate most glues other than Polyurethane glues like Gorilla, which uses moisture to cure.
Hope this helps
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Scott Ticknor
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #2 - Jul 26th, 2017 at 5:22pm
 
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Give this stuff a whirl . Smiley also try a heat gun to just dry the surface to be bonded
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« Last Edit: Jul 26th, 2017 at 5:24pm by Scott Ticknor »  
 
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Tom Coghill
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #3 - Jul 26th, 2017 at 6:34pm
 
IMO - I would not trust any glue on green wood.  For green wood I don't trust anything other than a tenon.

That said, periodically check to ensure your chuck stays tight.  The green wood will move, so the chuck will need to be adjusted.

Good Luck! Thumbs Up  Thumbs Up
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Rick Caron
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #4 - Jul 26th, 2017 at 7:18pm
 
i never turn  until i check the tightness of the tennon  or  recess..........
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Don Stephan
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #5 - Jul 26th, 2017 at 7:36pm
 
The two surfaces need to be PERFECTLY flat, or even just a smidge concave so they contact all the say around.  Probably every glue needs to be clamped tightly, for a couple hours if not overnight.

This might sound silly, but try the same procedure with two pieces of dry wood, one serving as the turning blank and the other as the glue block.  Prepare both surfaces as you have been, even though they might already be surfaced. 

Not enough glue, old glue, poor surface preparation, .  . . there are  many possible reasons for a glue failure.

Can you describe your procedure in detail, and describe how you determine the glueup has failed?  If it comes apart the next day, is there some glue residue on each surface?  Are some wood fibers pulled from each surface?  Is there a cured glue film on each surface?

This is another situation that might benefit from a visit with a local woodturning group if there is one in your area.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #6 - Jul 26th, 2017 at 9:21pm
 
Tom Coghill wrote on Jul 26th, 2017 at 6:34pm:
IMO - I would not trust any glue on green wood.  For green wood I don't trust anything other than a tenon.


I don't like turning green wood so gluing it isn't something I do either.

As Don says, make sure you have good mating surfaces and maybe experiment until you're confident the hold is strong enough to withstand turning.
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robert baccus
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #7 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:06am
 
Having done many hundreds of glueblocks on vases to 100#'s + I feel I can say this. Use a very strong wood for a glueblock at least 6 quarters thick--screw it to a faceplate or tennon the thing. Use plenty of fresh thick CA glue only--holds 100% on green wet wood. Clamping not necessary--you can just set it on a piece--make sure the blank is also turned true as well. Give it 10-15 minutes. There is no need to sacrifice your good glueblock--you can use it many times. Merely cut it off with a parting tool and resurface. Extremely reliable mounting for wet wood mounting.  Ca glue is unique--sets 100% on wet blanks, requires no clamping pressure, as strong as any wood glue and twice as strong as gorillo glues.  Strengths about 5000 psi--but use the thick glues where a perfect fit may not be possible.  Keep in a refrig in summertime OBTW.
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« Last Edit: Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:14am by robert baccus »  
 
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Ed Weber
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #8 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 9:01am
 
I will agree to disagree.
IME,
CA glues have their place in woodturning but it is not for mounting blanks.
CA glue is indeed strong but it's strength is directly correlated to the accuracy of the joint.
Ca glue is more brittle when dry than PVA glues, it may fracture or crack when subjected to the stresses of turning.
There are dozens of brands of CA glues and they all have their own claims as to strength and durability. Not to mention the  number of websites that have discussed this topic.
I suggest before anyone uses CA glue as a mounting method, do some research and experiment.
Test the product for yourself armed with as much information as possible, it's your safety after all.
Here is an article written a while back, I find it to be a good all around guide to CA glues.
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JMO
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Don Stephan
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #9 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 7:05pm
 
Keith

Search on Youtube for "Lyle Jamieson woodturning" and scroll through his videos until you find one on glue blocks.  I've never used one, so I can't speak from experience on CA glue and glue blocks.

Lyle's videos are segments of a long video made years ago, so it would be helpful to watch also the segment before and after, if not all of them.
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Rick Lewis
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #10 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 8:26am
 
I guess I'm hijacking this thread a little.  But do you guys use hardwood or softwood for your glue blocks?  Any hardwood that I have is pretty green and wet or is only 3/4" thick (purchased from Woodcraft).  But I recently had a vessel pull off of a 2"x6" glue block that I made...glue held, but the pine fibers just pulled off of the block.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #11 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 8:53am
 
This same question was asked over at the Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register site.

Most people will recommend a hardwood, really you're looking for something with a tight grain structure that won't pull apart.
The size of the project is the main issue, (which also applies to your adhesive choice) the larger/longer the piece, the more leverage there is acting on the glue block connection. If your choice of glue holds, then the weakest link becomes the wood fibers which, with a softwood like pine, can separate causing failure.
The type of adhesive, the species of wood, the amount of surface area to be glued and the size/weight of the vessel all need to be taken into consideration when using a glue block.

You can use pine on smaller projects that aren't subject to excess amounts of stress and/or vibration.
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« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2017 at 8:53am by Ed Weber »  
 
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #12 - Aug 7th, 2017 at 9:56pm
 
I am big on testing any connection, glue or screw. Make you up a test glueblock with my instructions above and then try to beat it off with a big hammer. I have mounted 130# green vases, turned the outside with the tailstock and then hollowed the deep vases with a oneway steady rest with no failures. For failures use a weak glueblock, old glue or thin/ medium glue. I also commonly use a single screw--glueblock--glue connection with no problems. Some guys teaching turning( as in Wally) have used thousands of glueblocks with no problems if you use enough glue in the joint.
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« Last Edit: Aug 7th, 2017 at 9:57pm by robert baccus »  
 
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #13 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 8:10am
 
I agree with Ed. From my own experience I have come to only use Titebond glue for mounting to a glue block. I normally use a cut off of a 5/4 walnut board for the block. Recently I was hollowing out a ten inch deep vase and had the mother of all catches- the glue block held. The only issue I have is that it takes overnight to cure, and I want to turn instantly! I have used CA glue with some sucess, but only on small projects.
The other thing to remember is whenever possible, glue on side grain, not end grain.
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« Last Edit: Aug 8th, 2017 at 8:11am by Chris Neilan »  

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Ed Weber
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #14 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 8:53am
 
Don Stephan wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 7:05pm:
Search on Youtube for "Lyle Jamieson woodturning" and scroll through his videos until you find one on glue blocks.  I've never used one, so I can't speak from experience on CA glue and glue blocks.

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Many people use this method, (I am not one of them) you'll need to decide for yourself

Chris Neilan wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 8:10am:
The only issue I have is that it takes overnight to cure, and I want to turn instantly!

JMO but,
Turners are an impatient bunch  Roll Eyes
They can't even wait for the wood to dry and they still want to glue it to something, then use a friction polish later that same day.  Undecided

Be safe
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Mike Mills
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #15 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 9:07am
 
From my limited experience I have had no problem with thick CA glue with wet wood (about 12 projects over the years)
I do suggest hardwood for the glue block, you can glue up scrap 3/4 inch with Titebond to make one a few inches thick letting you just true the glueblock and use many times leaving the faceplate attached.
I would/have not use Titebond with green wood but it may work.
Here is a link to the Jamieson videos Don referenced.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #16 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 10:12am
 
Mike Mills wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 9:07am:
I would/have not use Titebond with green wood but it may work.


Standard PVA glues (titebond) should not be used when the wood is
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"Can high moisture wood be glued?

Moisture levels above 10% can slow the drying of water based wood glues such as Titebond Original, II and III to the point where, wood above 16% moisture content, may not dry at all. For wood with high moisture content, we would recommend using a polyurethane glue such as Titebond Polyurethane Glue."
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Mike Mills
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #17 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 4:02pm
 
You are correct Ed. I did not even know Tightbond made a polyurethane glue.

Here is the quote from the website beginning where Ed's quote ended.
"Titebond Polyurethane glue is activated by moisture and allows it to cure quicker. However, this type of glue foams when it cures so clamping joints tightly is critical during the curing process. Tight clamping eliminates foam in the glue line which can cause weakness of the assembly. We recommend 4 hour clamping for polyurethane glues. As an added benefit, after 4 hours, parts can be machined"

Sounds good, clamp tightly and wait four hours for the added benefit.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #18 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:09pm
 
Mike Mills wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 4:02pm:
Titebond Polyurethane glue is activated by moisture


This is the same as Gorilla glue which I mentioned above in original reply.

If I need to use a poly glue, I use Titebond poly,  IMO Just as good if not better and it seems to have a longer shelf life than Gorilla.
(I never got to the bottom of a Gorilla glue bottle, it always hardened up  Undecided)
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #19 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 10:07pm
 
Turning green wood is not about patients really. I hate to turn dry wood--especially deep boring in hard woods. Drying a large blank is not an option--we are talking years and bugs. I endseal my roughed out blanks for 4-8 months, return and finish out with rubbed out lacquer finishes--not exactly quickey work. Check out the very extensive tests on glues in Fine woodworking magazine--google it up. Only one glue is fully strong on wet woods.  Gorilla glue and poly glues were the worst performing glues tested--at 50% psi ratings.  Elmers school glue was twice the strength of gorilla glues.  A very comprensive test by the way.
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #20 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 7:15am
 
Robert

It is important to know HOW the glues were tested, not just the results.  Haven't subscribed to FWW in years.  How was the wood prepared, were both pieces the same moisture content, were clamps used, if so how long under clamp pressure, and any other details relevant to attaching glue blocks to green wood.  Thanks.
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #21 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 8:23am
 
The test involved hundreds of lap joints at three different degrees of fitting--standard pressure--University break testing on a computerized lab machine--very intensive and comprensive and scientific.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #22 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 8:56am
 
Robert, I don't disagree with you so please don't think I'm trying to argue.
(turners being impatient is my personal, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, belief)
The fault or problem with the FWW test and others as I see it, is that wood is a natural product. No test involving a natural product can ever be 100% accurate or repeated exactly. In science, if you can't repeat a result, there is a degree of uncertainty as to the validity of the findings. As you would expect, no two pieces of wood will ever be the same. Different types of glues use different chemical processes to adhere wood, which can be effected by the various characteristics of the wood being glued. I would also add that if I'm referencing the correct article, it's 10 years old, adhesives have come a long way in that time. Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
The term "green wood" is not a measurable level of moisture content or percentage. At what percentage is wood no longer green? At what point is wood no longer wet or damp.
The Titebond site gives specific moisture content levels or at least a range that can be measured.
This is why it is difficult to impossible to ever give a precise answer (ask ten turners, ...) to a question about wood. The best we can do is guide or try and point you in the right direction. What works for one person will not for another.
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #23 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 10:30pm
 
Sorry Ed--this test was by experts and used hundreds of identical wood pieces miked to tight, medium and loose joints. Probably 4 years ago. Tested by a university lab and computer analyzed to eliminate these concerns of yours and mine. Google it up. As good a test as could be possibly done. Comparable tests can be done using proper statistics as was done here. I have a degree and 35 years in forestry and used Stats every day + 5 years in the oil patch doing lab and field work.  Also been woodturning for 30 years and doing mostly vases and urns in green wood.  Can't remember the last piece I didn't mount with CA.  Have a lot of wood here in E. Texas to try turning.
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #24 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:30am
 

Well I wish I read that test, sounds interesting, I'll have to see if I have it on my DVD.
It would be good to see a proper test rather than what is usually cited on the web/youtube.
Thanks for letting me know.
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Re: Gluing a block for a faceplate
Reply #25 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 9:01pm
 
Thanks for providing critique and opinion.
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