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suggestions for long hole boring chuck.. (Read 622 times)
 
Rich Gouette
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suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Oct 31st, 2017 at 12:54pm
 
Howdy, I acquired an 18" lathe, and wish to try my hand at long hole boring.
I'll be boring through 16" of exotic hardwood, at 3/16"
I don't yet have a chuck, nor am I settled on how I'll actually do the boring, though I'm intrigued
by seeing some do long holes done freehand(no tail center/chuck)..
Though I'm thinking if I attempted that method, I'd do well to utilize some sort of steady rest..
So, the pressing question I have is the type of chuck that would work best for holding a 16" blank for boring.
A 3-jaw chuck?
I've also seen the Nova line of chucks,
which are quite humbly priced(which fits my budget)..

Any thoughts are very welcomed & appreciated!

Cheers,
Rich
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Don Stephan
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #1 - Oct 31st, 2017 at 5:05pm
 
If I understand, you want to drill a 3/16" diameter hole through 16" of wood?  What is the wood?  Is the wood straight grain, crotch, burl, . . .?  If straight grain, are you wanting to drill with the grain, diagonal to it, or perpendicular to it?  Has the wood already been on the lathe and if so what has been done with it?  What kinds of lathe and turning experience do you have?  What is the maximum distance between the headstock and tailstock?  Is your tailstock hollow?  What type of live center do you have in your tailstock?  Sorry for all the questions but more information would be helpful.
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Rich Gouette
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #2 - Oct 31st, 2017 at 9:30pm
 
If I understand, you want to drill a 3/16" diameter hole through 16" of wood?
-YES
What is the wood? 
-Dalbergia melanoxylon
Is the wood straight grain, crotch, burl, . . .? 
-UNKNOWN: DON'T HAVE ANY YET
If straight grain, are you wanting to drill with the grain, diagonal to it, or perpendicular to it? 
-I WANNA DRILL THROUGH IT...HAHA
Has the wood already been on the lathe and if so what has been done with it? 
-N/A
What kinds of lathe and turning experience do you have? 
-I'VE PRACTICED ON 2 PIECES OF OAK
What is the maximum distance between the headstock and tailstock? 
-18"
Is your tailstock hollow? 
-NO
What type of live center do you have in your tailstock?
LIKE THE ATTACHED PIC
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Glenn Roberts
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #3 - Nov 1st, 2017 at 5:32am
 
Google boring a hole in wood with a gun drill. Especially "Native American flute boring with a gun drill".
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Rich Gouette
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #4 - Nov 1st, 2017 at 7:57am
 
ok, I went ahead & bought a chuck.

Thanks
Rich
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Ed Weber
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #5 - Nov 1st, 2017 at 9:03am
 
Drilling a 3/16" through hole in a 16" long billet of African Blackwood is almost impossible. The difficulty is in keeping the hole straight and/or the drill bit running true.
This is another situation where you may need to drill from each end and try to meet in the center,
OR
Split the billet, route a semicircular groove in each half and glue the halves back together.
Also a 3/16" bit is very thin, prone to wandering and are going to be difficult/expensive to find longer than 12".
Here is some information on African Blackwood.
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Rich Gouette
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #6 - Nov 1st, 2017 at 9:18am
 
I'm planing on milling a 'D bit', which seems to be quite popular amongst uilleann pipe makers.
I confess I do find it a bit surprising to hear someone on here say it's near impossible to bore through that species of wood straight, as folk have been doing as much for quite some time: the key being, according to my research, much patience, clearing of wood, and proper cooling of the bit.

Rich

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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #7 - Nov 1st, 2017 at 9:44am
 
I don't know what a D bit is, but if you are to do this, a gun bit is the way to go.

Your biggest issue, no matter what you use is that your lathe bed is not long enough to do the job. You have a lathe with an 18" bed. You want to drill a 16" billet. So, your bit needs to be at least 16" long. When you add the length of the billet to the length of the bit, you need a lathe bed longer than 32". In fact, when you add the length of the drill chuck holding the bit, you need even more length.  (You've said that your tailstock is not hollow, so the option of gradually feeding the bit through the tailstock is not available to you.)

In reference to your comment about people doing this for some time, I wonder if what they are doing is drilling a square profile blank, then holding the blank in the lathe with centers in both the headstock and the tailstock. Doing this, then rounding the blank allows the turner to "center" the hole in the blank, where it has wandered during drilling. I've done this on shorter pieces for pepper grinder.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #8 - Nov 1st, 2017 at 11:08am
 
Rich Gouette wrote on Nov 1st, 2017 at 9:18am:
I confess I do find it a bit surprising to hear someone on here say it's near impossible to bore through that species of wood straight, as folk have been doing as much for quite some time: the key being, according to my research, much patience, clearing of wood, and proper cooling of the bit.


1. I said "almost"
2. Proper tools required
3. Quality of tools used
4. Level of skill/knowledge required
5. Wood species
6. And So On...

I'm not trying to be negative but you seem to be new to woodturning and there is much more to "drilling a hole" than meets the eye. There is a high level of difficulty built into this task due to the physical properties of the materials and tools to be used.
You've chosen a very hard wood species, a very small diameter x long length hole, it won't be as simple as it may seem.

I don't know your criteria for success.
Is it just a hole or a straight centered hole?
What is the final diameter of the hole?
How does the hole effect the function of the flute?

Do you see what I'm getting at? Any monkey can drill a hole but there is much more to it to be done properly.
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Bill Moschler
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #9 - Nov 1st, 2017 at 5:51pm
 
If the wood turns and the drill is held still it usually goes straight.  I would turn between centers first to get a cylinder if that is acceptable and then chuck on that.  16 inches is a long way to protrude from a chuck.  A drive spur and or some type of drive dog and letting the tail end rid on the bit might work best.  you might make a tail guide for the drill or use a tailstock with a through hole and bushing to feed the bit through and hold and feed the bit by hand.  The bid issue is clearance for the chips.  The smaller the drill the worse the problem.  You need to withdraw the bit completely and clear the chips every half inch or so of drilling.  Hence the bit through a bushing from the tailstock and push it in and out by hand,   I have brazed drills onto rods to get a longer bit to work with.  It needs to be fairly straight, but not perfect since the drill is not turning.  I have never tried it without the tailstock or guide but I can see how that might work with a mid sized drill.  Just let it ride on the drill.  The problem with using a chuck with a long outing is that if there is any misalignment (wobble) the tail stock will hand against that and work the material loose in the chuck.  Something to keep a close eye on.  Most of my drilling disasters have been from not keeping the chips clear or from drilling too small a diameter piece and exploding it from either the chips or the cutting force.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #10 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 6:57am
 
Bill: Rich has said that his tailstock is not hollow, so feeding the drill bit through his tailstock, as you suggest, is not an option for him.
That is why I don't understand how Rich believes he can drill a 16" billet on a lathe with an 18" long bed. Mouting an 16" long drill bit in a Jacobs chuck in the tailstock to drill the 16" long billet held in the headstock means that the tailstock has to be at least 32" - plus the length of the jacobs chuck itself - from the headstock. Rich has only 18" from headstock to tailstock.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #11 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 9:33am
 
There are many ways to go about making a Uilleann pipe chanter
Some have tapered bores
Some have a brass tube inserted
This is a specialized craft.

While I have a lathe long enough for such a task, I would bore this hole on a drill press, where gravity is not working against me. Starting with a standard or even short bit to avoid flexing. 3/16" (4.7mm) is not very big at all and can easily bend with just a small amount of excess pressure. Then proceed to the next longer bit and so on. Keeping less of the bit free and more of the shank supported buy the bore will help support the bit should it want to flex. (I wouldn't start with a 16" long bit) After drilling, mount on lathes between cone centers and true the blank to the bore.

Long hole boring really isn't a big deal but when working with such a small diameter bit/bore there are more things to consider.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #12 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 1:35pm
 
Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register                Maybe an option, but maybe we are going about this in an overly high tech way. The chanter (and Bagpipes ) are centuries old . Now...how did those guys with their limited tools get that hole in there ?  The first one with the correct answer wins...well nothing,except gratitude of course  Cheesy
                                          
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Rich Gouette
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #13 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 3:12pm
 
ok, I guess it's my turn..
Funny, we've actually not spent any time talking about the thread topic!
lol... that's ok I bought a chuck.

A couple things:
I misspoke about the tailstock: it IS hollow
I do appreciate Ed, and all you fine folk.
I was honestly awaiting some feedback from a couple of people regarding the issue at hand, so I could lend a little support to the idea. (still waiting)

What I'm envisioning is:(more or less)
Mounting the blank, turning a tenon, remounting & then turning the whoe blank round.
Then removing tailstock, and substituting a steady rest.
Then....slowly feeding a D bit in(having created my shallow & centered guide hole) and removing OFTEN & cooling the bit(not with water).
Unsure right now, if I'd be able to utilise the tailstock, as I'm guessing the piece might be too long:I really need to look more closely at my plans.

This could be an epic flop, I could wind up with the thing flying off into oblivion.. but by golly, I'm gonna learn a few things from it all.

Rich

ps. maybe the old timers used one of these:
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« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2017 at 3:14pm by Rich Gouette »  
 
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #14 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 3:20pm
 
It my understanding that they used "basically" a spoon or D type drill bit that is less prone to wander. (please correct me if I'm wrong) These bits are more of a scraping bit and do not necessarily follow the least resistant path of the grain.

As I said a few posts ago, "Proper tools required"
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Rich Gouette
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #15 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 3:32pm
 
Ed Weber wrote on Nov 2nd, 2017 at 3:20pm:
It my understanding that they used "basically" a spoon or D type drill bit that is less prone to wander.


I'm planning on rolling my own....as it were..
Smiley
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #16 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 4:31pm
 
I don't see a whole lot of other options unless you know some pipe makers.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #17 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 7:25pm
 
I wil chime in again.  Since the tailstock is hollow I would purchase a hollow cup center and feed the drill through the hollow center.  Look at Packard woodworkings long hole boring kit for suggestions of a way to do it. .  I am very leary of the steady rest, chuck idea.  I think the leverage from the steady rest will wobble the chuck loose ;and then the drill will pull the work out of the chuck.  More of a problem with a twist drill or auger I guess.  The answer to how the old guys did it is a hollow cup center and tailstock and a lamp auger or almost any drill fed through the tailstock.  Your idea might work but the cup center drill combination is a proven idea that has bee used for centuries.  You could bush one of the 3/8 or 5/16 down to 3/16 if that is really what you want.  You will need the chuck likely anyway.  Not so much the steady rest.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #18 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 7:36pm
 
thank you Bill!
funny, I was looking for just such a center, but didn't search hard enough..
I shall investigate straightaway!

Rich
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #19 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 7:38pm
 
although, I'm probably going to run out of room....with a center added on

hmm
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Rich Gouette
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #20 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 8:03pm
 
good news!

I just learned that my lathe takes a bed extension....

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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #21 - Nov 3rd, 2017 at 8:05am
 
If you envision making a number of these, you might investigate adding an extension to your new lathe, versus returning the lathe and buying one with a longer bed.  Don't know how the costs would compare, but I would expect all other things equal a longer lathe would be stiffer and have less chance for alignment issues than a shorter one with an extension.

If memory is correct, you are wanting to work with a piece of wood 16" long.  That is a challenge for any chuck so you might consider which brand(s) have a reputation for the best holding ability.  I have limited experience with my Nova chuck, and hundreds of hours of experience with my Vicmarc.  I bought the latter when one of my first bowl attempts came out of the Nova chuck, and feel the Vicmarc has significantly better holding ability.  There is a price difference, but a 16" long blank seems like a severe challenge for a chuck.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #22 - Nov 3rd, 2017 at 8:40am
 
I'm seeing Rockler sells an extension for $76.00 that effectively doubles the bed length.
Every outlet online is out of them, and I think I know why..
My theory is there's a ton of fellas like myself who after buying the 18" lathe, now find they could use more  bed...

Shocked
thanks,

Rich
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #23 - Nov 3rd, 2017 at 8:48am
 
As  it was mentioned earlier, some type of spindle steady-rest will be required. Some rigs also utilize a drill bit guide in conjunction with a spindle steady, this will most likely be needed if your tailstock quill is solid.
Nova has "Saw Tooth" jaws
Vicmarc has "Shark Tooth" jaws

JMO,
I could probably make one of these with the tools I have on hand (except maybe a long bit) but if you're going to the time effort and expense, of purchasing tools and making jigs, I would have to make several to justify the cost.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #24 - Nov 3rd, 2017 at 9:25am
 
ok, this is exactly what I was thinking:

As a Hollow Cup Center

When drilling through the tailstock of your lathe, put the hollow safe driver in place of your live center. The safe driver doesn't have bearings, you'll just to set it into you workpiece and let the wood spin on the front on the safe driver. Don't worry, people turned like this for thousands of years before ball bearing live centers were invented. In this case, the safe driver is performing as a cup or "dead" center. Make sure you regularly lubricate the tip of the safe driver with a a few drops of oil.



from:
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #25 - Nov 3rd, 2017 at 10:46am
 
That'a all well and good and everyone who operates a lathe should know it.
If your tailstock quill doesn't have a hole through the middle, it doesn't really matter what type of center you use.
You need a hollow center tailstock, not just center
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #26 - Nov 3rd, 2017 at 10:51am
 
Example
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #27 - Nov 3rd, 2017 at 11:08am
 
oh, you missed the update earlier where I corrected myself: it IS a hollow tailstock

Smiley

neat gif though!
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #28 - Nov 3rd, 2017 at 11:43am
 
One of the many questions I posed at the start of the discussion, so that respondents could give you information.  I was not trying to be unpleasant.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #29 - Nov 3rd, 2017 at 11:51am
 
I think early on, when I read, "Is your tailstock hollow?"
My brain for some reason thought , "center"

Roll Eyes
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #30 - Nov 4th, 2017 at 8:50pm
 
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #31 - Nov 5th, 2017 at 7:19pm
 
Thanks for posting the above video.  As for the method I will pass. I just do not like a real long extension from the 3 jaw wi9th wood as the material.  Fine unti it comes out.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #32 - Nov 5th, 2017 at 8:15pm
 
Twice you've mentioned a three jaw chuck.  I can't recall ever seeing a 3 jaw chuck in a woodturning catalog, although I've heard mention of them in metal turning situations.  I suspect the best holding ability for turning wood is a four jaw chuck, not a three jaw.  With a four jaw chuck, the best grip is obtained with a dovetail tenon and square shoulders, with the tenon just slightly larger than the minimum diameter of the chuck jaws.

But now you're saying a chuck, jaws, and hollow tailstock is not a good way to drill the wood?
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #33 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:19am
 
Watch the video.  There is no tailstock.

I think that os a 3 jaw chuck shown in the video.  I have one for my wood lathe.    If there is a very long extension from the chuck the piece will wobble a little.  And if you run the extended end in a center to hold it straight then it will tend to work the piece loose in the chuck.   But in the video there is no tailstock.  In practice the spur drive with the hollow cup center works fine.  No need for the chuck.  Look at the long boring kit at Packard Woodworking.

And no, I am not saying you cannot do it with a chuck.  But it is not the way I would prefer to do a long piece.  Though I do it with pieces I consider short enough all the time.  One reason I have the 3 jaw is for drilling inserts for fishing rod reel seats.  I do usually use a Jacobs chuck in the tailstock.  I have to reposition the tail stock a couple of times.  Though I just recently got a set of pen jaws for my Nova chuck that work well also.

If I was to use a chuck and the hollow center I would be sure that the but of the piece is jammed solidly against something in the chuck so that the piece can not be pushed back into the chuck any further by the pressure from the tailstock when it loosens.  That way one can be sure it will not come out.

I am not a great fan of the dovetail chucking method for bowls, etc.  All of the pieces I have had fly from my lathe came from that kind of setup.  Usually do to a wood failure.  I am so old fashioned I bought several faceplates and much prefer to glue a block on the blank and use a faceplate.  So take what I say with a proper grain of salt.

Woodcraft lists a 3 jaw chuck for the Delta Midi Lathe.  A small one.
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #34 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:36am
 
the first time I watched that video a few weeks ago, I thought , "yikes! I can see it wobbling!"

clearly, the turner is confident in what he's doing..
still  gives me the willies though
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Ed Weber
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #35 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 11:26am
 
Rich Gouette wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:36am:
clearly, the turner is confident in what he's doing..

You say confident, I say either ignorant of the potential dangers or complacent.
Use a spindle steady
While the spindle in the video is only about 8" long (guesstimate) it's also turning at a very high rate (unknown RPM) but IMO too fast due to the fact that it heats to the smoking point in about 1-2 seconds.
The longer the bore needed, the longer the bit, the more heat generated, the more potential for twisting and so on.
Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register shows the very basic principles for long hole boring, without any mention of technique, safety or commentary of any kind it's entirely up to use to exercise common sense.

Don Stephan wrote on Nov 5th, 2017 at 8:15pm:
Twice you've mentioned a three jaw chuck.  I can't recall ever seeing a 3 jaw chuck in a woodturning catalog, although I've heard mention of them in metal turning situations.

Three jaw chuck is mentioned by the person who posted it in the description section of the video.

As I mentioned earlier this is a somewhat specialized procedure (long hole boring) so much so that Axminster sells a "system" for just this purpose.
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Rich Gouette
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #36 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 12:03pm
 
thanks for the link, helpful to see tooling options for doing this..
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Don Bunce
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #37 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 3:52pm
 
In your case where the stock will be almost as long as the bed, a banjo mounted steady should work. Here is a pic to show the general idea. This is from F. Pain's book The Practical Wood Turner.

3/16" seems like an awfully small bore... What are you making?
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Rich Gouette
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #38 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 4:55pm
 
Uilleann pipe chanter.
Conical bore....

Shocked
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Don Bunce
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Re: suggestions for long hole boring chuck..
Reply #39 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 11:25am
 
Here is another idea for a diy steady rest.
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