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Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons (Read 1,079 times)
 
John Grace
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Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Dec 3rd, 2017 at 3:43pm
 
I'm considering taking the plunge next year in a new sharpening system.  To those who either have or have explored the following, what do you consider the pros and cons of the:

Oneway?
Sharp Fast?
Tru-Grind?

They all appear to execute the grind in the same manner and am just curious as to the thoughts of those who have tried them?

THANKS...John
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Ed Weber
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #1 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 4:29pm
 
(I have the Oneway system)
IMO
The Oneway (Wolverine) system is pretty much the standard. All the systems go about the sharpening angle geometry in much the same way. I think more importantly than the system would be the use of CBN wheels. Long lasting (do they wear out?) flat, true, no dressing, all make for more consistent sharpening.
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Don Stephan
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #2 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 7:56pm
 
As always, your best research tool might be other turners in your area that might allow you to test drive them.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #3 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 10:24am
 
I should also mention that IMO the Oneway system is pretty much bullet-proof.
It's built quite heavily and should withstand a lifetime of use and abuse. I've had one for 10+ years and no issues to report. The last hing I would say is that arguably being the 'most popular" unit has some benefits. Common setting for grinds among fellow turners, third party and after market products are also available (RoboRest as an example). These are a few things that come to mind. I can't speak for the other units, no first hand experience.
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Don Stephan
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #4 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:42pm
 
Not trying to be an irritant, but have you watched Reed's videos on his Robo Rest?  Sometimes I'll use several tools in just a few minutes, and the Robo Rest changes platform angles in seconds.  Definitely takes some practice to sharpen freehand, but I don't hesitate to touch up an edge since it takes seconds to switch from grinding say a bowl gouge at 40 deg to a scraper at 70 deg to a "bottom feeder" bowl gouge at say 65 deg.  It is necessary to understand the desired shape of the tool tip, but the same would seem to be true of a sharpening jig - linger too long or not long enough along the edge and the shape will be less than ideal.
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robo_hippy
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #5 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:54pm
 
In terms of 'market share' I would expect the Oneway to have 95% or more of the total market for sharpening set ups. Since I don't use gouge jigs, I am not sure about theirs other than they are very popular. Their platform set up is not well thought out, but I am prejudiced.... You can not leave it in one place and use the whole range of angles you need for platform sharpening. Only ones on the market that allow that are Stuart Batty's and mine. Both are designed around a protractor with the pivot point set up to be in line with the face of the wheel so you don't have to move it once it is in place. Sorby apparently had the first gouge jig. There are many variations of them out on the market...

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Grant Wilkinson
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #6 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 12:05pm
 
Like the other 95% of the market, I have the Oneway system. I tend to use the varigrind jig for my swept back bowl gouges and my spindle gouges. I use the platform for my spindle roughing gouge. The Oneway platform is not near as sophisticated as Robo's but his was not available when I bought my Oneway and the Oneway platform was part of the kit that included the bases and the platform. It gets the job done and doesn't require me to add to my already high cost of sharpening "stuff".
While I agree with Ed about the benefit of "common settings", I must admit to a great level of frustration with all of the "expert" opinions in how to set up the Oneway system. Ask 5 experts and get 6 opinions. I'm not talking about angles here. I am talking about how to set up the Wolverine/Varigrind to achieve those angles. The experts cannot even agree on which of the movable parts affects which of the angles of the grind. As a result, I fell in to the trap of changing settings all too often, following the opinion of yet another expert turner.
Whatever system you go with, I would strongly recommend finding one method that gets you repeatable results and stick with it. It will save you a lot of frustration and gouge length.
With respect to Don, I have tried in vain to sharpen freehand using the Oneway platform. I simply cannot get repeatable results. The Roborest would not help me in that at all, I believe, since the fault is not with the rest. It is with my lack of ability. I know that I am not at all alone in this regard.
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Grant Wilkinson
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Ed Weber
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #7 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 12:27pm
 
Grant Wilkinson wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 12:05pm:
While I agree with Ed about the benefit of "common settings", I must admit to a great level of frustration with all of the "expert" opinions in how to set up the Oneway system. Ask 5 experts and get 6 opinions. I'm not talking about angles here. I am talking about how to set up the Wolverine/Varigrind to achieve those angles. The experts cannot even agree on which of the movable parts affects which of the angles of the grind. As a result, I fell in to the trap of changing settings all too often, following the opinion of yet another expert turner.


That's just ONE reason I don't often offer info about grinds. I purposely ignore the "experts" mainly because I can loosen and tighten a thumbscrew with the best of them. Now I know what it does and doesn't do. As a result, I settled on what works for me, not someone else.
A little while ago, someone here asked what angle my bowl gouge was and I had to go out and measure it.

My advice would be to start with a middle of the road grind and experiment from there. It doesn't take long to figure out what does and doesn't work for you.
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John Grace
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #8 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 7:11am
 
Ed Weber wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 12:27pm:
A little while ago, someone here asked what angle my bowl gouge was and I had to go out and measure it.


That was me Ed...thanks.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in...it's much appreciated.

John
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Jerry Johansen
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #9 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 11:41am
 
I have the One Way which stays in the same position for most of my tools.
Since I have two CBN wheels I have the Robo Rest on the other wheel. As others say, it takes only a few seconds to change angles and they are the same EVERY time. 

Hope you can consider purchasing both down the road.
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David Moeller
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #10 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 4:50pm
 
I've used the Wolverine system since it came out and it works  well for for me. Here's a twist to the subject. Wheel direction. I run my CBN wheels up/away from me. I have done this for yrs no matter the wheel type. For heavy grinds with a platform I grind 'down'. Opinions?
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #11 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 5:06pm
 
I have the Oneway sharpening system and Robo Hippy's platform system also.  I feel they both go together very well.
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #12 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 5:13pm
 
David Moeller wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 4:50pm:
Here's a twist to the subject. Wheel direction. I run my CBN wheels up/away from me. I have done this for yrs no matter the wheel type. For heavy grinds with a platform I grind 'down'. Opinions?


I've heard people who have experimented with this approach, mostly by those that use scrapers. It seems they are trying to enhance their burr or something, for myself I see no advantage.
IMO "grinding" and it's more intelligent little brother "sharpening" is the art of removing the right amount of material to leave a sharp edge. It doesn't really matter to me which way the wheel, stone or plate is moving as long as when I'm done I have the proper edge.
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #13 - Dec 8th, 2017 at 1:26pm
 
Jimmy Clewes was the first one I ever saw who used the upside down method for sharpening his scrapers. His reasoning was that you got a sharper burr. He did not have CBN wheels at the time. Any one who uses the Tormek and other wet wheel clones generally sharpens in reverse. Do you get a better edge? Well, I don't really know. For sure the burr on the scrapers is very fine, and how fine depends on how fine the wheel grit is, as well as how long and how hard you push into the wheel. I didn't experiment much with the upside down method for my scrapers. The upside down burr does seem to be like the burr on a NRS (negative rake scraper) as in gone in seconds. The burr on right side up is far stronger, and off of a 180 grit CBN wheel is excellent for heavy roughing and shear scraping. The sharpest and most durable edge for shear scraping is one that is burnished, so hone off the grinder burr, and then use a carbide rod to burnish a burr on it. I have had good success with burnishing the grinder burr down and then back up as well. I do show that in my shear scraping video in that section on this forum.

No idea how the reverse sharpening works on gouges.

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Ed Weber
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #14 - Dec 8th, 2017 at 2:34pm
 
robo_hippy wrote on Dec 8th, 2017 at 1:26pm:
The sharpest and most durable edge for shear scraping is one that is burnished, so hone off the grinder burr, and then use a carbide rod to burnish a burr on it.


A burr that comes off the grinder is an unintentional benefit of the grinding process that can be used nut doesn't last long.
A burr that is burnished (work hardened) is made purposefully, is harder and lasts much longer.
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #15 - Dec 8th, 2017 at 5:23pm
 
As for how long the grinder burr lasts, I can't really remember what the burr off of a standard wheel is like. I have had CBN wheels for 10+ years, and that was about the time I started using scrapers for my roughing. With the V10, and M42HSS, the burr from a 180 grit CBN wheel is good for all of the roughing on several 12 inch bowls, and a good part of the shear scraping. With the Big Ugly tool, the burr off of a standard grinding wheel is good for about half a day of production turning on the Oregon Myrtle wood bowls. Not really sure about why, but figure that the CBN cuts differently than standard wheels, and is almost like a type of burnishing rather than just grinding and cutting. No way to back up that theory, just how it seems to me. I always figured that side ways honing on the bevels kind of did the same thing, especially with the finer grits. I need one of those 1000+ microscopes....

robo hippy
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #16 - Dec 8th, 2017 at 6:15pm
 
I'm with you most of that Reed, I can't prove it but that's what It seems like to me. Undecided
I do know they cut differently
It "may" have something to do with the fact that the CBN abrasive is much more uniform than stone or friable wheels. Also a CBN wheel has a  uniform surface every time, where a friable wheel is only uniform after you dress it, then one use and it's less than flat.
The physical act of burnishing hardens the steel since you are literally realigning the molecules by pushing (smearing) them into the position you want.
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #17 - Dec 8th, 2017 at 10:20pm
 
Grant wrote: "... I would strongly recommend finding one method that gets you repeatable results and stick with it."

This triangular jig sets the angle of the varigrind,and also the length of the bar the varigrind sits on. The 3 adjustment screws control those adjustments. Works great for me.
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« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2017 at 10:28pm by Glenn Roberts »  

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John Grace
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #18 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 9:11am
 
Next question...With respects to jig set-up, do you find yourselves changing the jig much for different tools or do you prefer to just set it and forget it?
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #19 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 7:27pm
 

The jig is permanent, unless I decide to use a different grind for that particular tool.
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #20 - Dec 10th, 2017 at 10:38am
 
I "typically" don't change the jig all that often.
I have a preferred grind for my spindle/detail gouges and a proffered grind for my bowl gouges. I don't often stray to far from my basic grinds.
This applies the the original and the Vari-Grind 2
It's easy enough to write down the setting that did and didn't work for you or put a mark on the jig where you use most often. as well as a jig like Glenn made.
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #21 - Dec 10th, 2017 at 2:22pm
 
Ed, I have been pondering this, "The physical act of burnishing hardens the steel since you are literally realigning the molecules by pushing (smearing) them into the position you want." I never really thought about it this way. I do know that a hammer head will harden with years of pounding to the point of becoming brittle, even had one hammer head that lost a chip into my thumb... I always thought that the burnishing was more just bending the metal edge up rather than pushing molecules around... Since I grind the burnished part off, I would guess that this is minimal, and not close to what happens to the hammer...

One interesting side point on side scrapers, I saw Nick Stagg, A Brit who lives up by Salem, OR, and he was demonstrating how to turn a lamp. He used a scraper for cleaning up face grain work that had the burr totally honed off. It cut really cleanly, which really surprised me. He was using it for finish cuts, but not roughing. I tried it on some sugar maple, and it did work really well. I have tried it for shear scraping, but still prefer the burnished burr... It does not work as well with softer woods.

robo hippy
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #22 - Dec 10th, 2017 at 3:10pm
 
If you ever look up anything about sharpening cabinet scrapers (card scrapers) you will most likely hear someone say that once burnished, the edge is now work hardened.
In a way it's cold forging, you are literally extruding the metal into the shape you want by pressure and no heat.

Here is the Wikapedia entry for "work hardening"
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #23 - Dec 10th, 2017 at 5:01pm
 
I was trying to remember the term for it. I was thinking case hardening, but know that involves heat. Work hardening,,,,, I may remember that for a week.. Maybe... Thanks.

robo hippy
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #24 - Dec 10th, 2017 at 5:30pm
 
robo_hippy wrote on Dec 10th, 2017 at 5:01pm:
I may remember that for a week.. Maybe...


Smiley
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #25 - Dec 10th, 2017 at 7:58pm
 
After seeing the trick on a Richard Raffan video, when I want to take a very fine scraper cut I will use a 600 diamond hone on both the surface and edge of the scraper, usually on the inside sides of turned lidded boxes.
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Re: Sharpening Systems: Pros/Cons
Reply #26 - Dec 10th, 2017 at 11:28pm
 
Don, that does work, more so in end grain than in bowl grain. I actually took the hone to the scraper, then took the scraper to the leather wheel on my Tormek. I could not feel any burr at all on it. I can feel a burr with hand honed 600 and 1000 grit stones.

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