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Honing a Spindle Gouge (Read 587 times)
 
Wil Russell
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #30 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 5:54am
 
Jeff, this is my much modified belt sander. I replaced the graphite pad with a mild steel 6” wide plate for full width work but it also has an easily removed 2” wide supplementary platen for tool sharpening. Belts for my machine are standard 6” wide by 6’ long. They are easily split into three 2” wide belts for sharpening tools. The rod at the bottom is for using a commercially available gouge jig. The main table is easily removed for gouge sharpening.
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Wil Russell
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #31 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 5:59am
 
Here it is in gouge mode.
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Don Stephan
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #32 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 9:06am
 
What do feel are the advantages of a belt sander over a grinder?
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Jeff Vanden Boogart
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #33 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 9:54am
 
I've got a 2 x 48 belt sander...would need to figure out a way to use the oneway jig. 

It would seem a convex grind might be the best for the inside of a bowl.  I believe that is what joHannes Michelsen uses, but don't know that there is a jig system that can do that. 
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Ed Weber
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #34 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 9:55am
 
Mike Mills wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 8:24pm:
It doesn't matter if the area between is flat or concave.
If you are talking about riding/following the bevel... on the inside of a bowl you are talking about the toe and heel.  It would be impossible to ride the bevel anywhere else as both are concave.

I agree Mike, that's also why a hollow grind really isn't the best choice IMO for turning tools, specifically for the interior as you mentioned.
Ride the bevel, ride the bevel, ride the bevel, oh wait, now I have heel marks  Roll Eyes Undecided

Mike Mills wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 8:24pm:
I do agree the angle has changed when grinding until you hone away 1/10,000 of an inch and then you are back to what you wanted.

I tend to think it's a bit more than that, it's a visible curvature. Which is why I ask, why grind a curve only to hone it flat?  Undecided The diagram clearly shows us that the fresh off the grinder edge is initially sharper than what you get after you hone it back, which IMO is where the edge angle will be after about 3 revolutions. Smiley

robo_hippy wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 9:01pm:
I can't think of any way that they would be practical for lathe work.

The micro bevel concept, (as I understand it) was initially developed to help reduce breakage of the cutting blade. Having a primary bevel at one angle and the micro-bevel at the intended cutting angle meant that there was more mass behind the fragile edge. It also meant it was easier to quickly hone the very small edge back into shape without having to address or re-grind the entire primary bevel. There are other reasons for it but those are the main ones.
With turners, they "usually" are within a step or two away from a sharpening station so I don't think the benefit of a quick touch-up with a hone is really a selling point. JMO

I still think that the idea of honing a compound curve hollow-grind with a flat card is not the best way to approach it. If you're going to hone, a curved hone or slip-stone of some kind will help with uniformity of the edge.

Turn safe and don't cut yourself
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Wil Russell
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #35 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 11:56am
 
Don Stephan wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 9:06am:
What do feel are the advantages of a belt sander over a grinder?


I found it much easier to fit a grinding table and jigs on my belt sander. I can easily change grits from anything from 40 grit to 600 grit. I seems quicker to me to reshape and sharpen tools. No need for wheel dressing. I also much prefer the flat grind you get using a belt.

This is aimed at machinists but much still applies to wood turners:

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w/
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Wil Russell
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #36 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 12:10pm
 
Here’s a quick video of sharpening a fingernail profile on a belt.

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The heel is easily removed by hand or jig after sharpening if required.
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Mike Mills
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #37 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 12:51pm
 
Ed Weber wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 9:55am:
Mike Mills wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 8:24pm:
It doesn't matter if the area between is flat or concave.
If you are talking about riding/following the bevel... on the inside of a bowl you are talking about the toe and heel.  It would be impossible to ride the bevel anywhere else as both are concave.

I agree Mike, that's also why a hollow grind really isn't the best choice IMO for turning tools, specifically for the interior as you mentioned. Roll Eyes Undecided

On the interior, hollow or flat doesn't matter.  They are meeting a concave surface.


Mike Mills wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 8:24pm:
I do agree the angle has changed when grinding until you hone away 1/10,000 of an inch and then you are back to what you wanted.

I tend to think it's a bit more than that, it's a visible curvature. Which is why I ask, why grind a curve only to hone it flat?  Undecided The diagram clearly shows us that the fresh off the grinder edge is initially sharper than what you get after you hone it back, which IMO is where the edge angle will be after about 3 revolutions. Smiley

OK, 1/10000 was a little extreme.   Roll Eyes  How about 3/100 or about 1/32?
 
I don't grind a curve to hone it flat.  That is just the way it happens.  As far as sharpness.  Yes it is "sharper" as to the angle, maybe 15° vs 30°.  But is a jagged (burr) edge sharper at 15 or a honed smooth at 30?

Looks like the reader will have to decide.  In the words of one famous (or infamous) person... it all depends on what the meaning of is is.   Smiley



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Ed Weber
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #38 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 6:33pm
 
Mike Mills wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 12:51pm:
But is a jagged (burr) edge sharper at 15 or a honed smooth at 30?


Now that's a very good question  Undecided

Mike Mills wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 12:51pm:
On the interior, hollow or flat doesn't matter.  They are meeting a concave surface.


Those who platform sharpen (freehand) typically have a more convex curvature to the bevel which, for the sake of this discussion (bowl interior), would be better than concave or flat. As I said this is why I and many others grind a relief (secondary) bevel to ease off the heel.
I have sometimes even ground a third bevel to "round' off the overall shape even more, creating basically a stepped convex curve.

Back to the OP,
Wil, Do you nave a photo of your spindle gouge grind? It might be good to have a visual comparison between belt sanding and grinding wheel.
photo 1. This is my 1/2" spindle/detail gouge, you can easily see the concave grind since this tool has a long bevel.
Photo 2. This is  my 1/2" bowl gouge with secondary (heel relief) bevel. As you can see, I could easily do with a third bevel on this one.
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Mike Nathal
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #39 - Nov 9th, 2018 at 8:39am
 
I would love to see those same pictures after honing
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Don Stephan
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #40 - Nov 9th, 2018 at 9:16am
 
For me, pictures after honing would be highly dependent on the care taken by the person performing the honing, and their intent.  Some would try to minimize the change in cutting edge angle, by honing both ends of the hollow grind, or the entire surface of a flat grind.  Others would try to create a micro bevel as mentioned earlier, honing just the last bit of the grind.
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Ed Weber
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #41 - Nov 9th, 2018 at 10:20am
 
Mike Nathal wrote on Nov 9th, 2018 at 8:39am:
I would love to see those same pictures after honing


My photos?

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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #42 - Nov 10th, 2018 at 11:38am
 
Relieving the bevel on the bowl gouges is a simple free hand grind, just grind off the heel and keep it rolling. Johannes had a jig with 6 or so different holes off of the dead center one for doing this when using a jig. I think he did all of his personal ones free hand. His specialty one used in his hats was ground down so there was maybe 1/16 inch of bevel, and the rest was rounded off. Christian Burshard would round his over till there was no bevel left at all. Not sure how Ed does his secondary bevel/relief grind, but for me, since I just use a platform and no jigs, I could replicate that by changing the angle of the platform. You could use a separate jig setting as well, say 45 degrees and 60 degrees or so for the primary/usable bevel (the one you rub when you are turning out the inside of a bowl). I would round off more of the heel on Ed's grind because that is still a sharp edge/heel and if it comes into contact with the wood, it will leave marks. A rounded one may leave burnish marks if you are using a lot of 'rub' rather than just floating, some thing that I still find hard to do. With all of my gouges, I grind away more than half of the bevel, and keep it rounded. Most difficult lesson to learn is 'the bevel should rub the wood, but the wood should not know it...'

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Ed Weber
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #43 - Nov 10th, 2018 at 12:05pm
 
robo_hippy wrote on Nov 10th, 2018 at 11:38am:
I grind away more than half of the bevel, and keep it rounded. Most difficult lesson to learn is 'the bevel should rub the wood, but the wood should not know it...'


Smiley

Nothing special, this is how I do it, quick and easy.
With a "standard" Wolverine (classic or II) once you grind your tool to "your" preferred grind, simply loosen the arm and slide it in toward the base about an inch and grind again, easy. If you want another, (third) slide it in another inch and repeat.
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Wil Russell
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Re: Honing a Spindle Gouge
Reply #44 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 4:31am
 
Sorry, only just seen these updates. I’ll take a picture of my gouge today.

This is my 10mm Spindle gouge.
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