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End grain haze (Read 420 times)
 
Rick Caron
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End grain haze
Jun 13th, 2019 at 9:16am
 
   I turned a cherry   bowl   made from  a very dry cherry board . The bowl is 9" wide  x 4"  deep.        It is  DRY...   As you can see it has  white  On the end grain.   I spent  20 minutes  hand sanding   with 400 grit.   The  side grain is  shinny.    Should i sand with oil? if so what kind.  this bowl will be used for  salad,  The tomato acid will affect it.
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« Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2019 at 9:19am by Rick Caron »  
 
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robo_hippy
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #1 - Jun 13th, 2019 at 9:57am
 
That is tear out from when you are cutting up hill against the grain. Some times you have to go take one or two more passes with a very sharp gouge. Some times a negative rake scraper will do the job. Some times a very light shear scrape (I have a video of that up in the video section here, or on You Tube) will do it. Personally, I do not think it is possible to totally eliminate tear out with tools other than end grain turnings like boxes. You have to reduce it to the point where less sanding is involved. Some times you just have to resort to 80 grit abrasives. That will not come out with 400 grit. You may be able to get it out with 120 as that does not look to be particularly deep. Slow sanding speeds on the lathe, and slow sanding speeds with the angle drill if you have one. Some times a curved card scraper, going with the grain is a good option.

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Glenn Roberts
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #2 - Jun 13th, 2019 at 11:31am
 
Reed, is it possible that the heel of gouge could cause this?
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Ed Weber
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #3 - Jun 13th, 2019 at 12:40pm
 
I know you asked Reed but I'll chime in.

The heel of the gouge "typically" causes bruising whch show up as dark streaks. I agree this is tear-out. There are a few different way to minimize it if not eliminate it.
1. Reeds suggestions about a cleaner cut off the lathe
2. Sanding, this can take many forms. I would start with 80 or 120 the cut past the tear out BEFORE you move your way up through the grits. If you don't, then you find yourself making your tear-out smoother but not removing it.
3. Stiffen, You might need to make the fibers stronger. Sometimes the fibers are simply weak and will break off below the surface (tear-out) no matter if you shear cut, sand or yell at it.
You can use a thinned mixture of your intended finish to soak the area. Once the finish dries, the fibers a usually strong enough to be cut/sanded without pulling out or breaking off below the surface level.
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Rick Caron
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #4 - Jun 13th, 2019 at 12:43pm
 
Reed the last tool on it was freshly sharpened NRS.  Then i sanded , but not with an angle drill.  Think i'll try that next.  Haven't got the hang of shear scraping yet.  Afraid to use any more gouges, as it's starting to get thin.  Power sand it is.  Thanks Reed.   Check back i'll keep you updated.   PS can't feel any roughness in either direction.
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Rick Caron
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #5 - Jun 13th, 2019 at 12:47pm
 
Ed, usually i  use thinned BLO to bring out the grain.  Would that stiffen the fibers?  I know it will take a few days to dry.  Funny how all woods act different.  Oh also i did on the outside turn from bottom to top then when i turned bowl around  went from top to bottom on the inside.
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« Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2019 at 2:04pm by Rick Caron »  
 
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robo_hippy
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #6 - Jun 14th, 2019 at 10:13am
 
Some of the marks there might be tool marks, but they are kind of minimal. Most of what we are seeing is tear out. Personally, and I just saw Stuart Batty demo last night, and he was very good, but not good enough to get rid of all of the tear out in some big leaf maple, I don't think it is possible to get rid of all of the tear out, ever. You try to get to a point where it is very minimal. Stuart did comment that with inside bowl gouges, or any gouge where you are going through a concave surface, you need to grind off all but about 1/8 inch of the bevel. This is pretty close to what I do. I also make it a round grind rather than a straight 'secondary' bevel which still has a sharp heel on it. Some times, if you have a 600 grit CBN wheel, then that helps too. Some times honing works as well. I do prefer a 45/45 grind bowl gouge for the sides, and then a BOB (bottom of bowl) gouge for the transition and across the bottom cuts. The 60 degree bevels, common on the swept back grinds, do not give you as clean of a cut as the 40/40 which Stuart prefers, or the 45/45 that I prefer.

Stuart didn't use a NRS on the maple last night because it is a soft enough wood that the NRS just doesn't work well on it. That is one reason why I like the shear scrape. Not sure what kind of wood that is, but first guess is an ornamental cherry. The big growth rings would tend to make that wood rather stringy and difficult to cut clean. With a bowl that size, and with those marks, you would have to make several trips to the grinder to refresh the burr to clean that up. One major point with the grinder burrs on the NRS is that one pass down the side of that bowl, with a 1 inch wide NRS with a 1/4 round profile, you would dull the entire edge. If you have to push at all, then your NRS is dull.

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Ed Weber
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #7 - Jun 14th, 2019 at 10:58am
 
robo_hippy wrote on Jun 14th, 2019 at 10:13am:
Stuart did comment that with inside bowl gouges, or any gouge where you are going through a concave surface, you need to grind off all but about 1/8 inch of the bevel.


I think this mas much to do with you personal method/mechanics of turning.
How you present the cutting edge (by extension, the heel) of your tool determines what part and how much of the bevel will rub.
If you move through the transition with the flute closed (pointing at 3 o'clock) you may get more rubbing than if you have the flute opened up more (1-2 o'clock). This also depends on whether you cut at, above or below the center line.

When I'm moving through a concave area such as a transition from wall to bottom, I start with the flute pointing toward 3 (closed) and end up at the center with the flute aiming at 1 or even 12, almost totally open. I rotate the tool as I move through the cut, which means the heel moves as well.
Can I still get heel marks, sometimes I do but not often. That's what works for me.
I grind a single secondary bevel, I do not use a BOB gouge.
Just a different method of doing the same task.


Rick Caron wrote on Jun 13th, 2019 at 12:47pm:
Would that stiffen the fibers?


You need some type of finish that dries hard. Many people use a thin coat of shellac or sanding sealer, which would not work under an oil finish.
You may have to reconsider your final finish, many times adding an oil-based finish to an affected area like tear-out will darken it dramatically.

All I can say is that if the area is already getting thin, you can't keep chasing it by different methods of shearing, cutting, or scraping. If the fibers are weak, the fibers are weak. Without writing it off totally, I would say you're at the point of one of three choices. Blend it in, hide it totally or embellish the area.
Good luck, keep us posted.

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Al Wasser
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #8 - Jun 14th, 2019 at 1:19pm
 
A trick I used to use with stubborn tear out is paste wax.  Rub a little into the tear out and then sand with 100 grit.  It is all gone by the time you get to 400  grit and does not affect a finish
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Rick Caron
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #9 - Jun 14th, 2019 at 4:18pm
 
Last night i decided to go to 120 grit paper,  seems to be doing something.  Won't know what till get to higher grits.  Will keep you informed,  may with pics  if i'm satisfied with the results....
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robo_hippy
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #10 - Jun 15th, 2019 at 10:15am
 
Well, to me, cutting, perhaps more so on bowls, the closer the cutting edge is to the bevel, the easier the tool is to control. On the outside of a bowl, which most of the time is convex, bevel angle doesn't make much difference. On any concave surface, it can make big differences. A 40 degree bevel is terrible for going through a concave surface, unless you really drop the handle and cut with the wing of the tool. I tend to hold my gouges more level, which has the nose at a high shear/slicing angle, and the wing at a scraping angle. Stuart does this too. When you drop the handle, the wings do more of a shear cut and the nose doesn't do very much.

Yes, a bowl can be turned with one gouge. In the days of Allen Batty, that was pretty much all they had. I have found, and this was due pretty much to  Stuart, that for going down the walls, I get a cleaner cut with my 45/45 than I do with a 60 degree nose bevel. It is also easier to push through the wood. Yes, there were days when I tried to do it all with only one gouge, the swept back wing types. To me, they are more of a 'one tool does it all' type gouge. Yes, it can do it all, but it is easier to use two specialized tools for better results. I did play with the 40/40 yesterday for a bit. Biggest problem I had was the entry cut on the rim for that finish cut from rim to as deep as I could go with it before the transition. I kept catching and skating across the rim. I am kind of on 'automatic' when doing that cut with the 45/45.... Still need more practice...

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Ed Weber
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #11 - Jun 15th, 2019 at 11:19am
 
robo_hippy wrote on Jun 15th, 2019 at 10:15am:
Still need more practice...


That's what I like about you Reed, you still, listen, practice and experiment.

This is why I tend to be critical of the "professional" instructors, it seems to me that many have a position (their own) and seem to say this is the way to do it. Or when they settle on something that works well for them, it becomes gospel. You must use the blah, blah, blah or you're not going to get good results.
With every piece of wood and every person being different, there is no possible way  one method will work for everyone. You need to find your own path.
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robo_hippy
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #12 - Jun 15th, 2019 at 6:17pm
 
It is all my dad's fault....At age 97 (in August) he still goes into work at a family business. He is an engineer. Engineer's motto: "If it ain't broke, take it apart and fix it anyway....." Still doing that. Oh, another motto of his is "I am not going to retire until my birth certificate expires." He is having too much fun....

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Don R Davis
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #13 - Jun 16th, 2019 at 5:20am
 
I am so happy for your dad, Reed. To be 97 and still go to work is amazing. I was watching Fox news last week and they had several WWII vets on one of their shows that were well into their 90's. One of them parachuted out of a plane at 97. Those guys are true American heroes.
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Re: End grain haze
Reply #14 - Jun 16th, 2019 at 12:30pm
 
I've been able to dramatically reduce skating by thinking in terms of bring the cutting edge to the wood in a "neutral presentation."  Generally that means for a spindle or bowl gouge the nose is vertical, the bevel at the cutting edge is perpendicular to the surface of the wood, and the tool is horizontal.  Ideally one would experiment with a second person turning the headstock by hand, but how often is that second pair of hands around, so I turn the lathe speed as low as possible.  This approach has helped me significantly reduce incidents of skating (and followup muttering).  For me, a know-free square or octagonal block from a 2x6 is great for experimenting, trying a new grind, and so on because the cost of the wood is immaterial and the wood cuts easily.  Yes it is prone to tearout but even that encourages me to work on skill.
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