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Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick (Read 260 times)
 
Paul Haus
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Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
May 22nd, 2020 at 8:38pm
 
I ran into a problem and came up with a trick.  I've started doing some large drill bit coring using a steady rest and forstner bits.  I have a 5/8" 2MT tailstock drill chuck I use in both my metal and wood lathe which has been fine till I started working with larger bits (3" plus).  With forstner bits over 2", even having cored out the center with a smaller bit, at times it seems to want to grab and spin the MT in the tailstock when using larger drill bits.  Cleaning the MT on the chuck and tail stock plus reseating didn't solve it.  Happens the pin on the chuck key is the same diameter as the tool shaft for removing my faceplate and regular chuck.  Simply stick that into one of the holes in the drill chuck and hold it while cranking the tailstock handwheel to drive the bit into the work piece and the drill chuck won't spin any more.  It may want to, but very little pressure is required to prevent it from happening.
This may be known to others but I did not find anything on it, and thought I'd pass it along in case it helps someone else out.  Such an easy solution but hadn't thought of it before because I'd not had any issue with the drill chuck trying to spin in the tailstock before.
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Louie Powell
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #1 - May 23rd, 2020 at 7:36am
 
Paul

If I understand correctly, what you are doing is inserting a tommy bar into the hole that the chuck key goes into, and by holding the bar, preventing the chuck from spinning in the morse taper in the tailstock.

I would not have a concern about doing that on my lathe - the throw is 6", so a tommy bar inserted into the jacobs chuck key hole is long enough that it would wedge against the bed ways if the chuck started spinning.  However, if the lathe throw were any greater, I would worry about the safety of that approach.

While I prefer keyed chucks, a keyless chuck is actually safer for use on the lathe- if you inadvertently leave the key in the chuck, and the chuck starts to spin, it is possible for the key to be flung out of the chuck, possibly hitting you in the face.   That's the same reason that I was taught many years ago that you should attach the chuck key for an electric drill to the power cord - as a reminder to make sure that the key is removed from the chuck before you plug in the drill and start using it, and also so you can use the chuck key if the drill is plugged in.

The same thing could happen if you use a tommy bar to hold the chuck to keep it from spinning - if the lathe has a large enough throw that the tommy bar doesn't wedge against the bedways, it is possible that if you let go of the tommy bar, the spinning chuck could launch it into the air hitting you or a bystander.

The tendency for a jacobs chuck to break free of the morse taper and start spinning is a serious problem with larger forstner bits.  The largest bit in my collection is 2";  I think it is sometimes better to use a scraper or gouge to cut larger holes rather than try to drill them. 

My standard approach to drilling is to grip the jacobs chuck with my left hand. The issue there is that if the chuck starts to spin, the knurled surface can go a job on your left palm - it may not break the skin, but it does hurt - DAMHIKT;  to keep that from happening, I wear a kevlar carver's glove (with the little rubber dots to enhance the grip) on my left hand when gripping the chuck.   
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« Last Edit: May 23rd, 2020 at 7:58am by Louie Powell »  

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Paul Haus
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #2 - May 23rd, 2020 at 8:47am
 
Louie
I agree on hand holding the chuck, which worked till I got over about 2", then didn't have the strength in the hand to keep holding it in place.  I've got a 16" lathe so something that would catch on the bed would be very long, this is just the right length for me.  The picture is of a 4" forstner bit and I was able to hold it with this setup.
Just passing along an idea for the next guy that runs into something similar, this was a new to me situation.
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Ralph Fahringer
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #3 - May 23rd, 2020 at 8:55am
 
I discovered..guess how... that If  I want the hole to eventually be a certain size, I need to drill out by many steps. I got a whole set of Forstner bits that increase by 1/4".

Took a while to find the really big ones, but they are out there.

The idea is to take small bites and not pushing in too quickly at the first point.  I push in a bit to set a "ledge".

Then as I go  ahead, the ledge guides me so it cuts without drifting or spinning.

Also, backing out often to clear the bit helps.

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Paul Haus
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #4 - May 23rd, 2020 at 9:02am
 
Ralph
I agree on doing step drilling, in fact I'm uncertain if I could drill it out purely based on the above bit.  I've been starting around 1" then going up by ~1/2" for each successive hollowing till I get to my ultimate size.  It not only makes it easier to drill but also easier IMO to clear out the chips while drilling.
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #5 - May 25th, 2020 at 2:27pm
 
Paul
I like your idea.

It has happened to me many times the first several years of turning and getting the wood gone.  At first I needed the practice on using the tools and how to cut it all out and which tools were the best to do that job.  Then I started to using the forstner bits and had your exact same problem which is to much surface to cut using big bits.
Then like Ralph said I would start out with a 1" bit and go to 1.5 then 2" and up from there to the 3" which is the biggest I have now.
The bits are coming in contact and cutting a lot less wood so it does not spin.

Since I have not cored yet I would love to know where you are getting the larger forstner bits at.  Let me know please and hopefully it is not China.
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Paul Haus
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #6 - May 25th, 2020 at 4:24pm
 
Arlin
Unfortunately the majority of the larger carbide forstner ones I  got off eBay and Amazon, and yes they are China in origin.  I actually have a couple of smaller carbide bit sets, one is WoodTek and the other is Bad Dog and they go up to 1 3/8" and 1 1/4" in size respectively.  I've had them long enough they're probably from Japan or Taiwan, unlike the new ones.  Even the HSS ones I have from places like WoodCraft are from China. 
PS Even drilling out the hole in steps, by the time I got to the 3" or larger bits I still had issues with the chuck wanting to spin in the tailstock.  I have hand damage going back many years and at times I have trouble holding onto something like the chuck tight.  Using that lever gets me through that issue.
Paul
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Robert Fischer
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #7 - May 25th, 2020 at 5:37pm
 
I haven't tried them yet (because of the price) but I'd like to try the Fisch brand "Wave Cutter" forstner bits.   They're made in Austria.   Has anyone here used them and can give a review?

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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #8 - May 25th, 2020 at 8:42pm
 
Paul

Maybe you can tap the drill chuck into the tail stock to seat it better which I have done in the past but the tail stock will not eject it and you will have to use the tommy knocker to get it out.


Robert

I have seen them also but the price tag is way out of budget for me and if I had the funds I would save by getting the big set instead of one by one.  Other then that I have seen no reviews about them yet.

The ones I do have I bought from Lee Valley and he gave us vets a discount to get the set.  Rob Lee helps us once in a while and I am very grateful for the help.

I really like the Axminister Stainless Steel Evolution chucks a lot and wish I had two more of them with two more of the jaws that could help us move faster.
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Chris Neilan
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #9 - May 26th, 2020 at 6:46am
 
Stumpy Nubs (James Hamilton) did a review of Fisch forstener bits a while back and gave them a very good grade. I have been wanting them ever since.  Thumbs Up
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Ed Weber
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #10 - May 26th, 2020 at 10:29am
 
A few things here (you're not going to like them)

1. Use the correct tool for the job.
2. If you don't have the correct tool, use the second best alternative but be aware there will be safety concerns and the end result may not be what you would get with #1.
3. A typical Morse taper #2 will probably slip at about 300 foot pounds of torque. This is not exact, there are variables.
If you're doing everything properly and the taper is slipping, then you're exceeding it's capabilities. This equals the wrong tool.
A 3" wood cutting but should not exceed the holding power of a MT2 with proper setup and usage, drill speed and feed rate
4. Adding a bar can be dangerous, not just because it can rotate but you're trying to make the tools do something they're not designed to do by adding more leverage. The potential of one of the parts in the chain breaking or incurring damage has just gone up.
IMO, it's simply not worth it for a relatively simple task of drilling a hole.

I would suggest using the bit as a guide.
Start with your desired bit, 3" or whatever and establish the hole, 3/16"-1/4" should be enough.
Remove the bit and hollow out the majority of the waste material with traditional turning tools. Once the bulk of the wast has been removed, return with the desired bit, register it in the shoulder you established and clean up the hole.

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Paul Haus
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #11 - May 26th, 2020 at 5:57pm
 
Ed
I respect your opinion but don't agree with it.  There's a lot of us, myself included, who have had injuries in the past that affect us today.  If everyone was in perfect health, I likely would agree or at least consider seriously your comments.  If you don't have full use of your hands, you likely will either stop or find ways around it.  I have and I'm happy with the results.  It may not agree with everyone's methodologies but it's up to each person to decide what works and what doesn't.  It's no different than if someone need crutches or a walker to get around, it's just a fact of life.
Happens I ran across a strap cramp I'd forgotten about.  I may try that next time instead of the tool to hold the drill chuck steady, we'll see how that works.
Regardless as long as a person knows their limitations and work within it, let them enjoy their accomplishments.  I did furniture restoration and repair for a lot of years and I'm proud of what I did.  It may have been done in ways others may not have done it, but it got the job done.
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« Last Edit: May 26th, 2020 at 7:18pm by Paul Haus »  
 
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #12 - May 27th, 2020 at 11:14am
 
Paul

I have to agree with Ed on this one.

I was thinking of another way last night and came up with this.

Like the headstock and using MT 2 on it you can drill the Drill chuck with a 1/4" tap and install a 1/4" threaded rod and a 1/4" star knob on the end and tighten it down and that should do the job.

The way you are doing it is just not safe and like I tell the vets take no chances.
Just think of it this way if you would please.  If while you are drilling and while advancing a catch happens and you let off the pressure then it starts drilling operation again.......
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Louie Powell
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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #13 - May 27th, 2020 at 11:45am
 
Arlin

If I understand correctly, your suggestion is to make a draw bar can be used to secure the jacobs chuck to the tailstock ram.  There are two problems with that suggestions.

First not all lathes have a hollow ram in the tailstock that permits use of a drawbar.  The ram in my midi lathe is a solid piece of metal, so a drawbar cannot be used.  I can use a drawbar in the headstock, but not in the tailstock.

Second, a drawbar secures the male morse taper to the female morse taper, but in the case of jacobs chucks, that doesn't mean that the chuck itself is secured.   In many jacobs chucks, the taper is actually a double-ended arbor with an MT at one end, and a different taper (typically,  JT-33) at the other end.  While you can secure the arbor to the female taper, it is still possible for the JT-33 to 'break free' allowing the chuck body itself to rotate (or worse yet, come off altogether - DAMHIKT). 

I don't know what the original reason was for having this arrangement, but when I upgraded from a small lathe with MT-1 tapers to a midi with MT-2 tapers, it made it possible for me to upgrade my jacobs chuck by replacing only the arbor, thereby saving a few bucks (which I then promptly spent on other stuff). 
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« Last Edit: May 27th, 2020 at 11:46am by Louie Powell »  

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Re: Tailstock Drill chuck antispin trick
Reply #14 - May 27th, 2020 at 12:38pm
 
Arlin Eastman wrote on May 27th, 2020 at 11:14am:
I have to agree with Ed on this one.


Did that hurt too much?
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