Woodturner's Resource
Woodturner's Resource  
  Featured Artist    Websites   Support Wr
Tutorials, Projects & Tips   Event Calendar   Tool and Book Store
  Home Page Forum HelpSearch Map TPT Resources LoginRegister
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Slow Down (Read 286 times)
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 7,389

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Slow Down
Sep 8th, 2020 at 10:27am
 
I'd like to start a discussion about attention to detail or the absence of these days.
As most of you know I like to tease (sort of) that turners are the most impatient  woodworkers of them all, they won't even wait for the wood to dry  Roll Eyes

I consume a large amount of woodworking information from any source I can, the problem is that very little of it goes into any detail at all.
TV programs are almost worthless, I watch and if lucky you get an idea or see a new product. As far as actual information good luck. It's all got to fit into a 1/2  or 1 hour program (minus commercial breaks).
You-Tube, here anyone, anywhere, regardless of skill or competency can film a project, this is a double edged sword IMO. Actually filming detailed content is rare, (because it's not easy and it takes time) the majority I've viewed are simply sub par.
Books and Videos on specific topics are better but are usually one person's view of how things should be done.
So, we find ourselves in a very strange situation, we have easier access to more information than ever before in history and yet we're loosing skills.
There doesn't seem to be an appetite to actually delve deeper into a subject beyond a cursory view. Everyone thinks they're an expert after watching a video or googling something. (This is observed by a study at Yale University)
Now that everyone is an expert, everyone should be producing museum quality work, right?
There actually seems to be a growing gap between what many "think" is good work and actual quality woodworking, which to me, comes as no surprise.
If you rush a project simply to get it done, it will show, one way or another.
One rule of woodworking I can tell you is this, there are no short cuts.
As it's been said, there are two ways of doing something, the right way and again.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Jacobs
WR Addict
*****
Offline


JC L&S

Posts: 1,673

North DFW, Texas, USA
North DFW
Texas
USA

Gender: male

Powermatic 3520C
Re: Slow Down
Reply #1 - Sep 9th, 2020 at 8:22am
 
A mentor of mine used tho say" the higher the gloss, the lower the quality."
definitely true of wood working. But most people like a high gloss on most everything. they've been told to believe that MDF covered with a veneer is high quality.

Glenn J.
Back to top
  
Glenn+J  
IP Logged
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 7,389

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: Slow Down
Reply #2 - Sep 9th, 2020 at 8:49am
 
While not necessarily "literally" true all the time, I get the point.
I always heard "if it doesn't go fast, make it shinier"

I look at it like this, if I'm going to devote my time to building/making something, I'm going to do it the best I can, otherwise why bother.

Even if I'm using veneer covered MDF
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Don Stephan
WR Addict
*****
Offline


WR Rocks!

Posts: 2,270

Cincinnati, Ohio, Ohio, USA
Cincinnati, Ohio
Ohio
USA

Gender: male
Re: Slow Down
Reply #3 - Sep 11th, 2020 at 7:34am
 
For several years woodturning books and videos have been extremely frustrating to me because they are so superficial.  "Present the tool this way (in general terms) and move it this way" is fine when the stars and moon are in alignment and everything works perfectly.  But that too seldom is the case, and when everything does not work perfectly the user seldom can identify the problem because the books and videos don't cover WHY to present the tool this way and move it this way.

And how often does one find clear definitions of essential terms like "flute" and "fingernail grind?"
Back to top
  
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 7,389

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: Slow Down
Reply #4 - Sep 11th, 2020 at 10:14am
 
Exactly Don, Exactly

When I was looking into turning (not too many years ago) there was, and I can only guess still is, a void.
I usually like to learn and discover things on my own rather than be taught but just finding information deeper than the "turn wood, stick in gouge" was elusive to say the least.
I've written about this subject in the past, referring to the wealth of beginner guides and then, whizz-bang magazine cover pieces, nothing in the middle. No deeper insight on how to get from  A to Z.  Getting you started and then letting you go to discover some things on your own has value but at some point you need come back and get more information to work from or you can't advance in certain ways.
Since the content from B to Y is up in the air, you can do what ever the heck you want without question. Asking question of other turners like why Shocked, often gets returned with either a blank stare, an anecdotal story of no real insight or an accusatorial glare as if you just questioned their integrity.
Safe, unsafe, smart, dangerous, no one seems to know or care, just get it done and quick.
Those who have more knowledge and all their digits are few in numbers and sadly won't be with us much longer.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Ralph Fahringer
WR Addict
*****
Offline


I'm the "Burly" Man!!

Posts: 1,330

Ellsworth, Maine, USA
Ellsworth
Maine
USA

Gender: male

PM3520b
Re: Slow Down
Reply #5 - Sep 11th, 2020 at 10:52am
 
I lucked out and connected with one of the guys in my local woodturners association who agreed to do some one on one sessions with me on my own lathe.

We ended up doing around 8 Mondays with him showing me a technique and then guiding me as I did it.

At times, he would tell me to stop and hold that position, and then tell me to slightly change that position and then proceed.

I learned soooo much from those times with him.

He has since passed away from Pancreatic cancer  Cry  but I have taken a few classes at the Center for Furniture

Craftsmanship up here in Maine and each allowed me to delve deeper into style, and technique.

My thought in turning is: the larger the tool, the lighter the touch to the wood. Thumbs Up

My other thought is: I still hate the skew!!! Grin
Back to top
  

Originality is the art of concealing your source.
 
IP Logged
 
robo_hippy
WR Addict
*****
Offline



Posts: 3,135

Eugene, OR, USA
Eugene, OR
USA

Re: Slow Down
Reply #6 - Sep 12th, 2020 at 10:21am
 
My favorite response to 'how are you doing' came from a tavern I used to frequent many years ago. The sign on the wall said, "Not slow, not fast, just half fast." That sums things up pretty well, some days more than others....

robo hippy
Back to top
  
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 7,389

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: Slow Down
Reply #7 - Sep 12th, 2020 at 10:54am
 
Grin
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Grant Wilkinson
WR Addict
*****
Offline



Posts: 752

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
Canada

Re: Slow Down
Reply #8 - Sep 15th, 2020 at 6:55am
 
I would respectfully disagree with some of your assertions, Ed. You are correct in saying that we have easy access to more information/instruction than ever before. However, for me, the issue has always been (and I've nagged about this here before) that too much of the information/instruction is contradictory. I'm not talking about the "grant wilkinson learn to turn in 4 minutes" youtube video "instruction". I'm talking about the recognized expert videos, lessons, courses, yadda yadda.

One expert says that the 40/40 grind invented by his father is the ONLY way to sharpen a gouge. He goes so far as to say that if you get beyond 43, you're toast.
The next expert says that somewhere between 45 and 55, or more, is the optimal grind. Plus, of course, he will sell you a jig to make it easy to duplicate this grind.
Next in line is the expert who says that the only possible way to achieve his unique 3-bevel grind is to do it freehand on a platform. Oh wait, I just invented and will sell you a "fixture" not a jig that will allow you to sharpen your tools just like me.
Finally (and it's not really "finally") there is the expert who says that all of this is "BS". I quote. He sharpens to an angle more obtuse than the other quoted experts and he praises the Wolverine jig.
Throw in the experts who shill for various makers of the various types of carbide cutters and is it any wonder that turners seem to be "losing skills".
And, I won't even get started on the "push cut", "pull cut" expert debate.

I would argue, Ed - and I guess that I am - that it is not the lack of patience or the lack of taking the time to put in the time. That said, I'm sure that is the case with some would-be turners. However, in my case, and in others, I'm sure, the problem is the contradictory, self-promotional, egotistical "education" promoted by these experts. "My way is the only way." "My way is the best way."

Maybe my problem and the problem of others is that I didn't give any of these expert methods enough time before giving up on them and moving on to the next expert's method. I don't believe that is the case, but I'm willing to accept that criticism. However, there is no question in my mind that moving from one expert method to another did absolutely NOTHING toward the advancement of my skills. In fact, there is no doubt in my mind at all that the abundance of expert, contradictory opinions hindered my advancement - and more importantly my joy from turning.

There will be those who criticize me for not choosing one expert and sticking with him. They will say that the problem is mine. I'm a big boy now. I should darn well make up my mind. Fair enough. My only defence is that I believe that it is natural to try something else when the thing you are trying does not seem to be working.

Like Ralph, I was lucky early on to have a mentor. I had 2 3-day one-on-one sessions with Bill Grumbine. Bill had no ego when it came to method. He taught me to set the protrusion of my gouge to "about that much" from the end of the jig. Set the angle to "about that much". My mistake - my BIG mistake - was moving away from that advice and listening to the recognized experts. What I should have done when I was having problems was go back to Bill and get him to show me what I was doing wrong. Instead, I watched/read/listened to the abundance of expert instruction, and watched my skill level decrease.

Sermon ended.
Back to top
  

Grant Wilkinson
Ottawa ON
 
IP Logged
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 7,389

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: Slow Down
Reply #9 - Sep 15th, 2020 at 9:32am
 
I don't think we disagree on all that much.
With woodturning in particular, there doesn't seem to be a consensus on just about anything, not even the language.
When I first started, I became very frustrated with all the contradictory information and ego of experts.
If I tell you why I think I do something one way or another, I always explain why.
Of course I think my way is the best way, that's why I do it but it might be the best way for someone else, especially if I don't explain why.
If you say, " I do this because it's more efficient or easier or some other tangible explanation, it makes sense.
If you say do it like this because," my three fingered uncle Stubby did it that way", it means little to nothing
Some, maybe many, of these demonstrators and so-called experts do not clearly explain why they do what they do. If they do, it's not always based in fact or science. If there were one a perfect way, we would all be doing the same thing, right? Which kind of goes to prove that everyone has their own method, which may or may not work for you.

When I started, I had the benefit of years of tool use, so without knowing a thing about turning, I knew more than some.
I had gotten a DVD of a "expert" and sat down for a good lesson. At one point in the video the instructor did what I'll only characterize as a "production turner move" I instinctively knew what he did was "wrong" in some way.
Now if you're alone in your shoo fine, do what you like but don't think this is a good way to teach. Showing off and trying to be clever while promoting what could be argued as bad habits, is no way to go about teaching on an instructional video.
Many people follow a certain persons advice over another more due to personality than skills. Someone else's personality won't make you a better turner.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
robo_hippy
WR Addict
*****
Offline



Posts: 3,135

Eugene, OR, USA
Eugene, OR
USA

Re: Slow Down
Reply #10 - Sep 15th, 2020 at 11:23am
 
I grew up with the 'need' to experiment. Given all the bowls and other turnings I have done over the years, I had a chance to experiment a lot. I have always been under the impression of trying every one's methods, and through trial and error, found out what works best for me. If you don't do as much turning as I do, you can settle on a couple of different methods because you don't have as much time to try different things.

Any good teacher is open to new ideas. As is any good student. I doubt I can count the times I have seen some one doing some thing I considered myself to have refined to being very efficient, and doing it in a different way, and thinking, 'why didn't I think of that'?

robo hippy
Back to top
  
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 7,389

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: Slow Down
Reply #11 - Sep 15th, 2020 at 1:24pm
 
robo_hippy wrote on Sep 15th, 2020 at 11:23am:
I have always been under the impression of trying every one's methods, and through trial and error, found out what works best for me.


You never know until you try.
I've picked up tips over the years from all sorts of folks, some I like some I didn't like some that shouldn't really be using tools unsupervised.
Being able to figure out which practices are good or bad can be a full time job. Many people don't want to have to do that, they simply want a few trusted sources for the information so they can get on with their turning. With so many contradictory viewpoints, it can definitely put people off.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Rick Caron
Senior Member
****
Offline


So many logs, so little
time!

Posts: 428

Greer, South Carolina, USA
Greer
South Carolina
USA

Gender: male
Re: Slow Down
Reply #12 - Sep 15th, 2020 at 5:27pm
 
I go slow  then use walnut oil
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Ed Weber
WR Administrator
WR Patron
*****
Offline



Posts: 7,389

Wilton, California, USA
Wilton
California
USA

Gender: male

JET 1642
Grizzly G0584
Re: Slow Down
Reply #13 - Sep 15th, 2020 at 6:35pm
 
Smiley Thumbs Up
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print