The Woodturning Forum - Woodturner's Resource - Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth

Bill Neff WR Addict Offline WR Rocks! Posts: 997 Barronett Wisconsin USA Gender: Jet 1642EVS	Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth May 20^th, 2015 at 6:14pm Found this interesting article on the Golden Ratio. I know a lot of turners, artists and designers think it's the basis for great design. I like the comment that it is a fine rule of thumb. Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or
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Ralph Fahringer WR Addict Offline I'm the "Burly" Man!! Posts: 1,629 Ellsworth Maine USA Gender: PM3520b	Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth Reply #1 - May 20^th, 2015 at 6:34pm The Golden Rule is a standard rule that really does work for good aesthetic balance in design. Of course while that may be rule number 1... rule number 2 is to ignore rule number 1 whenever necessary.
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Larry Matchett

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Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth
Reply #2 - May 20^th, 2015 at 7:39pm

So the guy that wrote this is neither an artist or mathematician. Once again just because it is on the internet does not make it true. By the way it is ok to make an object that does not follow the golden mean as long as you do it on purpose to express what you are trying to say with your art. The principles and elements of design are there as guides and one should have a good working knowledge of them to be an artist or a good craftsperson for that matter. Most of the wood turners I have met don't have a clue about any of it. The pieces just happen. Some better then others. As a hobbyist it really does not matter as long as you are happy with what you create. Advancing to the national or international stage is quite another matter. Enough...............

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Len Layman

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Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth
Reply #3 - May 20^th, 2015 at 8:39pm

I find this an interesting article. To quote the author "It's bullxxxx."

When I make things that i really like and others do also, I find the approximate the ratio. When I see things I find naturally appealing, to me, they also do.

With that said I agree with Larry. It is not rule. and there is no rule against breaking it. I think it was Picasso who said; "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist."

Cheers. (I am not going to argue with Pablo) Grin

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Len

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Ed Weber WR Administrator WR Patron Offline Posts: 8,939 Wilton California USA Gender: JET 1642 Grizzly G0584	Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth Reply #4 - May 20^th, 2015 at 9:29pm From my own experiences, I find the point that Yves Béhar made to be the most accurate. "It's important as a tool, but not a rule." Just like any tool, it's only going to be as good as the person operating it, understand it's capabilities and limitations and then use it wisely.
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Ron Sardo

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Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth
Reply #5 - May 21^st, 2015 at 8:21am

I don't hold much credence in Mr Brownlee's Op-Ed

Yes it is a rule of thumb that is not carved into stone. Every art and architectural student learns how to apply the golden rule and the artistic ones learn how far they can bend the rule.

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Mr Brownlee Quote:

In plain English: if you have two objects (or a single object that can be split into two objects, like the golden rectangle), and if, after you do the math above, you get the number 1.6180, it's usually accepted that those two objects fall within the golden ratio. Except there's a problem. When you do the math, the golden ratio doesn't come out to 1.6180. It comes out to 1.6180339887... And the decimal points go on forever.

Mr Brownlee need a life
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John Brownlee is a writer who lives in Somerville, Massachusetts with two irate parakeets

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Gary Hostetter WR Addict Offline Posts: 805 Shrewsbury Pennsylvania USA Gender: Powermatic 3520B	Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth Reply #6 - May 21^st, 2015 at 2:25pm No rules in my shop.... lol I do what my head and hands work out, and it seems to work pretty well...
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Eric Armstrong

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Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth
Reply #7 - May 22^nd, 2015 at 8:19am

I try to live by the golden rule. As to the Golden Mean there appears to be many instances in nature where that ratio can be found. However, as Ron implied, it should not limit one's design judgement. I have seen a lot of poor design justified by stating that it follows the Golden Mean (like "form follows function"). Good art and design are visceral, based on an understanding of form, proportion color and materials, not based on some mathematical formula.

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Ed Weber WR Administrator WR Patron Offline Posts: 8,939 Wilton California USA Gender: JET 1642 Grizzly G0584	Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth Reply #8 - May 22^nd, 2015 at 9:06am Well said Eric
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Bill Neff

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Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth
Reply #9 - May 22^nd, 2015 at 4:47pm

This is a great discussion. I had a design professor tell us basically what's been said. He said learn the "rules" then you'll know how to break them and still have good design.

I used to do bonsai and was active online and in the local club. My biggest problem with it was that you HAD to follow the rules to make "good" bonsai. Bonsai people are so into the Japanese tradition that if you don't follow "THE RULES" then you aren't doing bonsai. Thankfully about 20 years ago a few artists from Europe challenged that thought and produced what they call naturallistic bonsai. The result, little trees that look more like trees in nature rather than a stylized vision of a tree. I think they still catch flack from the purists and old timers.

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Ron Sardo WR Administrator WR Patron Offline Chief cook and bottle washer Posts: 9,675 Drums Pennsylvania USA PM 3520	Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth Reply #10 - May 22^nd, 2015 at 4:56pm If you don't think out of the box it means you are stuck in a box.
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Dave Buckwalter Senior Member Offline WR Rocks and rolls! Posts: 379 Lititz Pennsylvania USA Gender:	Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth Reply #11 - May 23^rd, 2015 at 7:40pm Amen!
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John Normoyle

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Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth
Reply #12 - May 24^th, 2015 at 10:02am

You could try this exercise. Take 2 pieces of pine (because it is cheap) and make 1 bowl following the golden ratio, with the other piece make a bowl however you want. Both bowls need to be designed for the same purpose (utility, art, for your 3 year old to grab say "mine" and knock it around the house Cheesy

)
Now spray paint them solid black (any colour will work as long as you can't see the grain pattern), mark them so you know which is which but your friends wont know. Now show both of them to your family and friends. Keep track of which one gets more likes.

As others have said you don't have/need to follow/conform to the golden ratio. It does give a starting point in design, at least for me.

Happy turning

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If you don't have time to do it right, why do you have the time to do it twice?

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Alan Hollar

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Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth
Reply #13 - May 26^th, 2015 at 7:45am

I only ever had 2 half day lessons, being an autodidact at heart, but those lessons taught me the most about how to consider my work as art. One of his lessons was the flat black lacquer test. If the form doesn't work without the aid of color and figure, then it is a poor form. Texture, color and figure should enhance good form, not sub for bad form.

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Ron Sardo WR Administrator WR Patron Offline Chief cook and bottle washer Posts: 9,675 Drums Pennsylvania USA PM 3520	Re: Golden Ratio: Design Biggest Myth Reply #14 - May 26^th, 2015 at 10:52am Alan Hollar wrote on May 26^th, 2015 at 7:45am: Texture, color and figure should enhance good form, not sub for bad form.
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